Take Down the Flag?

[stradial]

Anybody have some books I can burn?

That ain't funny.
(unless their those romance books, then I have some matches and gas you can have)

 

[Madea]

Yes. It does matter. Do you want your neighbors deciding what can go on in your house?

I never said people shouldn't have the right to fly the flag. I simply don't agree with flying it over government buildings. People can decorate their entire houses and bodies with the flag if they wish. More power to them. If businesses choose not to sell the merchandise, that's their right. This is America. I'm not looking to keep anyone from exercising their rights.

You missed my point. Citizens of other states or countries have no right to tell South Carolina what they can and can not do. The "your house" reference was an analogy.

 

[Madea]

The vast majority of the population seems to want to believe that every single Southerner owned slaves and lived on huge plantations or large homes in the cities. That simply wasn't the case. The vast majority of the South was VERY poor. They were sharecroppers working along side the slaves. After being pointed at and told in class (during Civil War studies) that "you owned me" I had to explain this to my son. They don't tell them that in school. I had to assure my son that our ancestors never owned slaves. We simply couldn't afford that.

Here's another Facebook post to consider:

Frankly, I'm astounded at otherwise intelligent people who honestly and earnestly believe that the American Civil War was fought to preserve slavery in the South. Can any rational person truly think that thousands of young boys and young men and middle-aged family men willingly walked away from jobs and farms and families to preserve the rights of the rich plantation owners to keep slaves? Really? My guess is that any Confederate Army recruiter who said, "Hey, come fight and ...die so the rich guys up on the hill, the ones who sit there sipping Mint Juleps, can keep getting richer by using slave labor!" would have been laughed off the front porch of the tenant farmer's hovel. Those boys and men fought for something all right, but it wasn't to help the rich get richer by preserving slavery. Takes a special kind of liberal fanaticism to believe that.

 

[stradial]

The vast majority of the population seems to want to believe that every single Southerner owned slaves and lived on huge plantations or large homes in the cities. That simply wasn't the case. The vast majority of the South was VERY poor. They were sharecroppers working along side the slaves. After being pointed at and told in class (during Civil War studies) that "you owned me" I had to explain this to my son. They don't tell them that in school. I had to assure my son that our ancestors never owned slaves. We simply couldn't afford that.

Here's another Facebook post to consider:

Frankly, I'm astounded at otherwise intelligent people who honestly and earnestly believe that the American Civil War was fought to preserve slavery in the South. Can any rational person truly think that thousands of young boys and young men and middle-aged family men willingly walked away from jobs and farms and families to preserve the rights of the rich plantation owners to keep slaves? Really? My guess is that any Confederate Army recruiter who said, "Hey, come fight and ...die so the rich guys up on the hill, the ones who sit there sipping Mint Juleps, can keep getting richer by using slave labor!" would have been laughed off the front porch of the tenant farmer's hovel. Those boys and men fought for something all right, but it wasn't to help the rich get richer by preserving slavery. Takes a special kind of liberal fanaticism to believe that.

My family never owned slaves.
Like you said, too poor.
Heck, my mother's parents never even owned their own house till after my grandfather died and my two single aunts bought a house together, for them and my grandmother.
That was in the early 70's.
First house my grandmother ever lived in that had an indoor bathroom.


During the civil war, there was a statute that said if a man owned, I think it was at least 3, slaves and so much land, you didn't fight for the south.
It was common for Confederate soldiers to lament that the didn't have X number of slaves and land.

Throughout all history, the poor usually don't have a choice in fighting a war, while the wealthy usually do.
Nothing new about that.

 

[lotstodo]

There has to be a good Molly Hatchet song in here somewhere, I'm just too tired of all this crap to look for it.

 

[halogirl]

Only place it belongs is on Confederate Soldiers Grave sites.

 

[Madea]

Only place it belongs is on Confederate Soldiers Grave sites.

I respectfully disagree.

Quite frankly, this flag was on the back burner of my mind until the recent controversy. But as someone who had already taken time to research, someone who is very proud of where I come from, it's been brought back to the front for me. There is nothing attached to that flag that I should be ashamed of.

People may continue to say that it's been hijacked for evil. Yes, in a very small part. I will not surrender to the evil.

 

[The Sound Guy]

There has to be a good Molly Hatchet song in here somewhere, I'm just too tired of all this crap to look for it.

"Flirting with Disaster" comes to mind....

 

[The Sound Guy]

I respectfully disagree.

People may continue to say that it's been hijacked for evil. Yes, in a very small part. I will not surrender to the evil.

Good point, if we allow evil to take symbols from us, does that not mean that evil wins?

 

[lotstodo]

You may have already seen this on FB.. If not, it perfectly sums up my feelings on the subject. The media, to their dismay, did not get the riots that they fully expected from a white moron killing 9 blacks in church in the south. What they saw was community and upbringing. They had to do something.

I’m a Southerner. I’m a civil rights lawyer. I’ve stayed out of this fray and, to be honest, I’m really tired of the whole media frenzy.
With that said–taking out soapbox…pontificating….

The media did not get what it wanted from the South as a result of the Charleston tragedy. The good people of Charleston did not riot, did not engage in hateful shenanigans and did not provide the racist fueled fodder for their 24 hour-a-day headlines.


Poor, poor media–no Ferguson, no Trayvon Martin, no Oscar Grants. Instead, the good people of Charleston and of South Carolina unified and came together–all races, all creeds. They marched hand in hand to pay respect to the poor souls lost and to strengthen their community.


In short–they did what Southerners do. They put their faith forward and did the right thing ‘cause their mommas raised them right.
So, what are they left to do? Well, the Confederate flag seems like a fine substitute–and it worked.


Now, don’t get me wrong; I don’t think the Confederate flag has any place flying over any governmental building for several reasons:
(1) the Confederacy was a briefly lived nation–they lost the war–they don’t exist anymore…hello???
(2) the only flags that should fly over any governmental buildings in the United States are those of the United States and the sovereign State itself, let alone that of a defunct government (see No. 1); and
(3) regardless of what an individual’s intention is regarding the Confederate flag, it is a symbol of governmental oppression to many in this nation as recently as only 1-2 generations ago so a present day governmental unit flying it is…well…not good. Period.

But (you knew there would be a “but,” right?), if an individual wants to own, fly, wear, burn, or otherwise have emblazoned on them a tattoo of the Confederate flag then Hell–knock yourself out. It’s not my place (or anyone else’s) to tell you that you can’t do that.


Are all people who display or own a Confederate flag racist? No.
Are there racists who display and own Confederate flags. Yes.
Can it be offensive? Yes.
Does that mean that all Confederate flags are to be banned or wiped out? Well, of course not. This is America…remember?

And get this–once again, the South did not give the media machine what it wanted. South Carolina removed the flag, followed almost immediately by Alabama….ALABAMA, people!

But are the media mongers gushing over the progressive character of these moves…no. Now they are calling for the removal of the flag from the General Lee….dude, it’s the Dukes of Hazzard…a show that stopped running, oh, THIRTY years ago.

Ok…whatever. But then they are calling for historical monuments related to the Civil War to be removed.
This is called rewriting history.
This is bad….ask Ray Bradbury (and if you don’t know what I’m talking about read Fahrenheit 451). I won’t even launch into that, but you get my gist.
Should the Lincoln Memorial be destroyed? Should the hundreds of Civil War monuments spread across this nation honoring the tens of thousand who died (on both sides) be eradicated? Of course not.

Look, there are plenty of things that people do and that are part of the mainstream American life that offend me to my core (Kardashians, anyone?) but that doesn’t mean they should be obliterated. I find it personally reprehensible and offensive to my very being when I see people burn the American flag, stomp on the American flag, rip up the American flag, toss the American flag in the garbage, or even wear it in some version of cut off shorts barely covering their hoo-ha. But, do they have a right to do all of those things? Yes.
Does every person who owns or reads a Quran follow extreme Islam and plot the death of all Infidels (that’s you and me, by the way…)? No. Are there Islamic extremists who do plot and carry out the death to all Infidels who own and read the Quran? You betcha’.
Again, does that mean that all vestiges of Islam should be eradicated from the United States. Um, no.



There are plenty of music lyrics (rap, metal and pop) that as a woman I find personally degrading, threatening and flat out inhuman misogyny. Do I think that every single person that listens to this music, owns it or blares it at 11 million decibels in traffic treats all women as subhuman or wants to rape, kill and murder me? No.
Are there some people out there who do view women as subhuman who listen to this stuff? Sure.
Again, does that mean it should all be banned, the musicians locked away and all vestiges of their existence erased? Please.

So, as you are jumping on the current media-hyped-frenzied band wagon just stop and think…for yourself. For like a second. Use some common sense. Don’t be a cog in the machine and help them create an even bigger division in this nation than they already have.

Temple Trueblood

 

[Madea]

I don't know Temple Trueblood, but I'm pretty sure I'd like her. :thumbsup

 

[stradial]

You may have already seen this on FB.. If not, it perfectly sums up my feelings on the subject. The media, to their dismay, did not get the riots that they fully expected from a white moron killing 9 blacks in church in the south. What they saw was community and upbringing. They had to do something.

I’m a Southerner. I’m a civil rights lawyer. I’ve stayed out of this fray and, to be honest, I’m really tired of the whole media frenzy.
With that said–taking out soapbox…pontificating….

The media did not get what it wanted from the South as a result of the Charleston tragedy. The good people of Charleston did not riot, did not engage in hateful shenanigans and did not provide the racist fueled fodder for their 24 hour-a-day headlines.


Poor, poor media–no Ferguson, no Trayvon Martin, no Oscar Grants. Instead, the good people of Charleston and of South Carolina unified and came together–all races, all creeds. They marched hand in hand to pay respect to the poor souls lost and to strengthen their community.


In short–they did what Southerners do. They put their faith forward and did the right thing ‘cause their mommas raised them right.
So, what are they left to do? Well, the Confederate flag seems like a fine substitute–and it worked.


Now, don’t get me wrong; I don’t think the Confederate flag has any place flying over any governmental building for several reasons:
(1) the Confederacy was a briefly lived nation–they lost the war–they don’t exist anymore…hello???
(2) the only flags that should fly over any governmental buildings in the United States are those of the United States and the sovereign State itself, let alone that of a defunct government (see No. 1); and
(3) regardless of what an individual’s intention is regarding the Confederate flag, it is a symbol of governmental oppression to many in this nation as recently as only 1-2 generations ago so a present day governmental unit flying it is…well…not good. Period.

But (you knew there would be a “but,” right?), if an individual wants to own, fly, wear, burn, or otherwise have emblazoned on them a tattoo of the Confederate flag then Hell–knock yourself out. It’s not my place (or anyone else’s) to tell you that you can’t do that.


Are all people who display or own a Confederate flag racist? No.
Are there racists who display and own Confederate flags. Yes.
Can it be offensive? Yes.
Does that mean that all Confederate flags are to be banned or wiped out? Well, of course not. This is America…remember?

And get this–once again, the South did not give the media machine what it wanted. South Carolina removed the flag, followed almost immediately by Alabama….ALABAMA, people!

But are the media mongers gushing over the progressive character of these moves…no. Now they are calling for the removal of the flag from the General Lee….dude, it’s the Dukes of Hazzard…a show that stopped running, oh, THIRTY years ago.

Ok…whatever. But then they are calling for historical monuments related to the Civil War to be removed.
This is called rewriting history.
This is bad….ask Ray Bradbury (and if you don’t know what I’m talking about read Fahrenheit 451). I won’t even launch into that, but you get my gist.
Should the Lincoln Memorial be destroyed? Should the hundreds of Civil War monuments spread across this nation honoring the tens of thousand who died (on both sides) be eradicated? Of course not.

Look, there are plenty of things that people do and that are part of the mainstream American life that offend me to my core (Kardashians, anyone?) but that doesn’t mean they should be obliterated. I find it personally reprehensible and offensive to my very being when I see people burn the American flag, stomp on the American flag, rip up the American flag, toss the American flag in the garbage, or even wear it in some version of cut off shorts barely covering their hoo-ha. But, do they have a right to do all of those things? Yes.
Does every person who owns or reads a Quran follow extreme Islam and plot the death of all Infidels (that’s you and me, by the way…)? No. Are there Islamic extremists who do plot and carry out the death to all Infidels who own and read the Quran? You betcha’.
Again, does that mean that all vestiges of Islam should be eradicated from the United States. Um, no.



There are plenty of music lyrics (rap, metal and pop) that as a woman I find personally degrading, threatening and flat out inhuman misogyny. Do I think that every single person that listens to this music, owns it or blares it at 11 million decibels in traffic treats all women as subhuman or wants to rape, kill and murder me? No.
Are there some people out there who do view women as subhuman who listen to this stuff? Sure.
Again, does that mean it should all be banned, the musicians locked away and all vestiges of their existence erased? Please.

So, as you are jumping on the current media-hyped-frenzied band wagon just stop and think…for yourself. For like a second. Use some common sense. Don’t be a cog in the machine and help them create an even bigger division in this nation than they already have.

Temple Trueblood

That was what I was trying to say.

 

[ShoeDiva]

You may have already seen this on FB.. If not, it perfectly sums up my feelings on the subject. The media, to their dismay, did not get the riots that they fully expected from a white moron killing 9 blacks in church in the south. What they saw was community and upbringing. They had to do something.

I’m a Southerner. I’m a civil rights lawyer. I’ve stayed out of this fray and, to be honest, I’m really tired of the whole media frenzy.
With that said–taking out soapbox…pontificating….

The media did not get what it wanted from the South as a result of the Charleston tragedy. The good people of Charleston did not riot, did not engage in hateful shenanigans and did not provide the racist fueled fodder for their 24 hour-a-day headlines.


Poor, poor media–no Ferguson, no Trayvon Martin, no Oscar Grants. Instead, the good people of Charleston and of South Carolina unified and came together–all races, all creeds. They marched hand in hand to pay respect to the poor souls lost and to strengthen their community.


In short–they did what Southerners do. They put their faith forward and did the right thing ‘cause their mommas raised them right.
So, what are they left to do? Well, the Confederate flag seems like a fine substitute–and it worked.


Now, don’t get me wrong; I don’t think the Confederate flag has any place flying over any governmental building for several reasons:
(1) the Confederacy was a briefly lived nation–they lost the war–they don’t exist anymore…hello???
(2) the only flags that should fly over any governmental buildings in the United States are those of the United States and the sovereign State itself, let alone that of a defunct government (see No. 1); and
(3) regardless of what an individual’s intention is regarding the Confederate flag, it is a symbol of governmental oppression to many in this nation as recently as only 1-2 generations ago so a present day governmental unit flying it is…well…not good. Period.

But (you knew there would be a “but,” right?), if an individual wants to own, fly, wear, burn, or otherwise have emblazoned on them a tattoo of the Confederate flag then Hell–knock yourself out. It’s not my place (or anyone else’s) to tell you that you can’t do that.


Are all people who display or own a Confederate flag racist? No.
Are there racists who display and own Confederate flags. Yes.
Can it be offensive? Yes.
Does that mean that all Confederate flags are to be banned or wiped out? Well, of course not. This is America…remember?

And get this–once again, the South did not give the media machine what it wanted. South Carolina removed the flag, followed almost immediately by Alabama….ALABAMA, people!

But are the media mongers gushing over the progressive character of these moves…no. Now they are calling for the removal of the flag from the General Lee….dude, it’s the Dukes of Hazzard…a show that stopped running, oh, THIRTY years ago.

Ok…whatever. But then they are calling for historical monuments related to the Civil War to be removed.
This is called rewriting history.
This is bad….ask Ray Bradbury (and if you don’t know what I’m talking about read Fahrenheit 451). I won’t even launch into that, but you get my gist.
Should the Lincoln Memorial be destroyed? Should the hundreds of Civil War monuments spread across this nation honoring the tens of thousand who died (on both sides) be eradicated? Of course not.

Look, there are plenty of things that people do and that are part of the mainstream American life that offend me to my core (Kardashians, anyone?) but that doesn’t mean they should be obliterated. I find it personally reprehensible and offensive to my very being when I see people burn the American flag, stomp on the American flag, rip up the American flag, toss the American flag in the garbage, or even wear it in some version of cut off shorts barely covering their hoo-ha. But, do they have a right to do all of those things? Yes.
Does every person who owns or reads a Quran follow extreme Islam and plot the death of all Infidels (that’s you and me, by the way…)? No. Are there Islamic extremists who do plot and carry out the death to all Infidels who own and read the Quran? You betcha’.
Again, does that mean that all vestiges of Islam should be eradicated from the United States. Um, no.



There are plenty of music lyrics (rap, metal and pop) that as a woman I find personally degrading, threatening and flat out inhuman misogyny. Do I think that every single person that listens to this music, owns it or blares it at 11 million decibels in traffic treats all women as subhuman or wants to rape, kill and murder me? No.
Are there some people out there who do view women as subhuman who listen to this stuff? Sure.
Again, does that mean it should all be banned, the musicians locked away and all vestiges of their existence erased? Please.

So, as you are jumping on the current media-hyped-frenzied band wagon just stop and think…for yourself. For like a second. Use some common sense. Don’t be a cog in the machine and help them create an even bigger division in this nation than they already have.

Temple Trueblood

That was what I was trying to say.

I do think that is exactly what you were saying. :thumbsup :hug

 

[halogirl]

Only place it belongs is on Confederate Soldiers Grave sites.

I respectfully disagree.

Quite frankly, this flag was on the back burner of my mind until the recent controversy. But as someone who had already taken time to research, someone who is very proud of where I come from, it's been brought back to the front for me. There is nothing attached to that flag that I should be ashamed of.

People may continue to say that it's been hijacked for evil. Yes, in a very small part. I will not surrender to the evil.

I'm not ashamed of the flag. The south lost and they need to get over it. I really don't understand why SC still has it flying. That is the battle flag and the war is over. I'm glad my ancestors fought for the North even though they were from the South.

 

[Madea]

Only place it belongs is on Confederate Soldiers Grave sites.

I respectfully disagree.

Quite frankly, this flag was on the back burner of my mind until the recent controversy. But as someone who had already taken time to research, someone who is very proud of where I come from, it's been brought back to the front for me. There is nothing attached to that flag that I should be ashamed of.

People may continue to say that it's been hijacked for evil. Yes, in a very small part. I will not surrender to the evil.

I'm not ashamed of the flag. The south lost and they need to get over it. I really don't understand why SC still has it flying. That is the battle flag and the war is over. I'm glad my ancestors fought for the North even though they were from the South.

Then you should be very proud of what they won. 8) (Psst! It doesn't have anything to do with slavery.)

 

[lotstodo]

I am reminded of the day back in ninteen seventy something when the mayor of Boston sent his wife to admonish us here in Atlanta as the city of Boston burned in riots and Atlanta was too busy to notice.

 

[stradial]

Only place it belongs is on Confederate Soldiers Grave sites.

I respectfully disagree.

Quite frankly, this flag was on the back burner of my mind until the recent controversy. But as someone who had already taken time to research, someone who is very proud of where I come from, it's been brought back to the front for me. There is nothing attached to that flag that I should be ashamed of.

People may continue to say that it's been hijacked for evil. Yes, in a very small part. I will not surrender to the evil.

I'm not ashamed of the flag. The south lost and they need to get over it. I really don't understand why SC still has it flying. That is the battle flag and the war is over. I'm glad my ancestors fought for the North even though they were from the South.

Then you should be very proud of what they won. 8) (Psst! It doesn't have anything to do with slavery.)

Everyone should be proud of the ancestors who fought on either side.
If the men who actually fought in the war could praise the other side for their gallantry and bravery, which they did, then certainly we should be able to do the same.
The main reason the war happened was over whether the Federal government had the right to decide things for individual states.
It was fought over states rights.
Now, the biggest states rights issue at the time, was slavery.

It would be the same if a portion of the states decided to succeed today over the Federal government saying every state had to make gay marriage legal and the Federal government sent troops to stop them from starting their own country.
The catalyst would be the Federal government making all states legalize gay marriage, but the war would be over the right for each state to govern its self.

In the south men felt a stronger bond to their state than many in the north did, so they fought for their state.
But don't forget, the "draft" or compulsory service was in effect on both sides.

Perhaps the best example of the feelings between ordinary soldiers was given by civil.war historion, Shelby Foote.
The following exchange took place between a yankee picket and southern picket.
(a picket was a soldier standing guard at the edge of their lines)

Yankee soldier: "Hey, Reb, why are you fighting?

Southern soldier: "I'm fighting because you're down here."

Foote regarded that as "a pretty satisfactory answer".

 

[halogirl]

Only place it belongs is on Confederate Soldiers Grave sites.

I respectfully disagree.

Quite frankly, this flag was on the back burner of my mind until the recent controversy. But as someone who had already taken time to research, someone who is very proud of where I come from, it's been brought back to the front for me. There is nothing attached to that flag that I should be ashamed of.

People may continue to say that it's been hijacked for evil. Yes, in a very small part. I will not surrender to the evil.

I'm not ashamed of the flag. The south lost and they need to get over it. I really don't understand why SC still has it flying. That is the battle flag and the war is over. I'm glad my ancestors fought for the North even though they were from the South.

Then you should be very proud of what they won. 8) (Psst! It doesn't have anything to do with slavery.)

I am proud the USA won the war. Could you imagine what the world would be like if they didn't? Everyone knows the war didn't start because of slavery. I thought the topic was about taking down the flag. Not sure why slavery is being discussed. Why are they flying a battle flag? Like I said before the war is over, they lost, take it down.

 

[Boss 302]

Only place it belongs is on Confederate Soldiers Grave sites.

I respectfully disagree.

Quite frankly, this flag was on the back burner of my mind until the recent controversy. But as someone who had already taken time to research, someone who is very proud of where I come from, it's been brought back to the front for me. There is nothing attached to that flag that I should be ashamed of.

People may continue to say that it's been hijacked for evil. Yes, in a very small part. I will not surrender to the evil.

I'm not ashamed of the flag. The south lost and they need to get over it. I really don't understand why SC still has it flying. That is the battle flag and the war is over. I'm glad my ancestors fought for the North even though they were from the South.

Then you should be very proud of what they won. 8) (Psst! It doesn't have anything to do with slavery.)

I am proud the USA won the war. Could you imagine what the world would be like if they didn't? Everyone knows the war didn't start because of slavery. I thought the topic was about taking down the flag. Not sure why slavery is being discussed. Why are they flying a battle flag? Like I said before the war is over, they lost, take it down.

The reason slavery is being discussed is because there are those in the media and on the left who say the flag is a constant reminder of slavery. Many of them think that flying the flag are sending an undercurrent message they wish slavery existed today. It's BS, but their problem has now become a big issue.

 

[Madea]

And another thing:

Perhaps we could all do with some history lessons, particularly ones in the history of the "War between the States, AKA The Civil War. The mass majority of "Reb...els" who fought under a battle flag like the one pictured, did not own slaves, they were poor or felt that no one should own another human being. There were many states on both sides who held different beliefs on slavery. There are many records of family members fighting each other wearing either gray or blue The ones wearing gray were fighting for the SOUTH and it's right to rule itself without the oppression of the northern states. It is that simple. Approximately 620,000 men died in the war, a more complex study is suggesting that the sum may be as high as 850,000. Two percent of the population. In today's terms that would equal 4 million people. Slavery was not banned in the Union states by Lincoln so if you happened to be a slave in any of those states you were still a slave after the Civil War. This fact alone proves that the Civil War was not about slavery but about states rights to rule themselves. The Slavery issue was embraced by Lincoln in a attempt to keep other countries from coming to the aid of the South. Actually 12 USA presidents owned slaves. Do we now destroy all historical references to these 12 men? If one is not a southerner, they might not understand the love southerners have for history and the south. Had the south had equal amounts of men and supplies, the south may have undoubtedly won the civil war because they were fighting for liberty, state's rights and home. I now know the symbolic meaning that many blacks have attached to the confederate flag because of the media. I have been in the south and around blacks all my life and never did anyone mention this aversion to the flag. I believe in this situation we all need to agree to disagree on the meaning of this flag, otherwise we will continue to sever our ties to each other because neither side is going to back down. I might add this flag has been adopted by soldiers and sailors in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and even today. Should their patriotism be blacked out as well. Please for the Love of God stop and love your neighbor regardless of color, and flag allegiance. The war is over, there were no winners.