Can Social Acceptance Encourage Immorality?

Waski_the_Squirrel said:
One thing which should be clarified is what is immoral. What makes it immoral? One universal among a lot of religions is what we sometimes call the "Golden Rule." And that's how I view things. If two men or two women want a relationship, have at it. It doesn't affect me. On the other hand, someone who has an affair is hurting another human being. Teen pregnancy affects another human being. Two teens going at it...risky, but we're sexual beings. And more of that went on in the past than we care to admit. Since this is a fairly private part of the forum, I'll admit it: I like sex.

And I can't help but look at teen pregnancy. Abstinence is a great way to prevent it. So, what about states that teach "abstinence only" sex education? I figured ThinkProgress was a liberal source. Those crazy liberals want our youth to have crazy wild sex and abandon their moral upbringing. Other sources support ThinkProgress:

https://psmag.com/colorado-may-have...-bed-once-and-for-all-673c4cebed40#.x39f3d767
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117935

Abstinence only doesn't seem to work. Is homosexuality immoral? What makes it immoral? What about gender issues? What makes them immoral?

Jesus had it right in Matthew 7:12, and all the other religions and non-religions had it right. A little empathy is a great start for morality. No wonder everyone wanted Jesus killed. He was onto a real foundation for morality.
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Abstinence ONLY education is mostly a myth, as is opposition to birth control.

Having children out of wedlock is a primary predictor of poverty and negative outcomes for both mother and child.

Teaching children this basic fact, along with education on birth control methods, is the best comprehensive approach.
 
ShoeDiva said:
I have never watched that show and my gf has told me numerous times that I would love it and should watch.
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I really did not care for it at first, but I gave it another chance a couple of weeks ago.
It starts off slow, but around episode 5 or 6 you really get sucked into the story line.
I love the nostalgia and historical background, plus Jon Hamm is not bad looking.
Just started on season 3 yesterday...

:cool2:
 
Let's approach this from a different perspective.

Most of us here are parents. We love our children, but we have to be tough on them at times and even punish them so they will know right from wrong and learn that doing the wrong thing has unpleasant consequences. This way, our children will probably grow up to be responsible adults.

There's a rich family I know who didn't do that. The parents loved their children (the parents are deceased now), but when the kids did something wrong or got into trouble, the parents used their financial resources to bail the kids out instead of making them learn hard lessons. As a result, all four of the kids are a mess. They are all in their 40's and 50's; but two of them are in drug rehab and have been most of their lives, one is lazy and has claimed bankruptcy twice despite having a cushy job in the family business, and the other (probably the best of the bunch) has her issues too. All because their parents accepted the things they did wrong, patted them on the head and fixed it for them instead of making them take responsibility for their mistakes.

When society condones or accepts certain behaviors and acts, and especially when we relieve them of the responsibility of these things; we send a message that it's OK to do that, and no need to take responsibility for it because we'll take responsibility for you. Much as is with the rich family above; we perpetuate and encourage poor and even immoral behavior by not opposing it and making the people who do it experience the consequences for it.

It's human nature. We learn from our mistakes and poor decisions when we are forced to pay the price for them.
 
Guard Dad said:
Let's approach this from a different perspective.

Most of us here are parents. We love our children, but we have to be tough on them at times and even punish them so they will know right from wrong and learn that doing the wrong thing has unpleasant consequences. This way, our children will probably grow up to be responsible adults.

There's a rich family I know who didn't do that. The parents loved their children (the parents are deceased now), but when the kids did something wrong or got into trouble, the parents used their financial resources to bail the kids out instead of making them learn hard lessons. As a result, all four of the kids are a mess. They are all in their 40's and 50's; but two of them are in drug rehab and have been most of their lives, one is lazy and has claimed bankruptcy twice despite having a cushy job in the family business, and the other (probably the best of the bunch) has her issues too. All because their parents accepted the things they did wrong, patted them on the head and fixed it for them instead of making them take responsibility for their mistakes.

When society condones or accepts certain behaviors and acts, and especially when we relieve them of the responsibility of these things; we send a message that it's OK to do that, and no need to take responsibility for it because we'll take responsibility for you. Much as is with the rich family above; we perpetuate and encourage poor and even immoral behavior by not opposing it and making the people who do it experience the consequences for it.

It's human nature. We learn from our mistakes and poor decisions when we are forced to pay the price for them.
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Bad behavior is one thing, and I think most of us can agree on raising our children to accept the consequences when they act out, but you are imposing your own beliefs when you talk about immoral behaviors. Some do not think that all that have been spoken of here are immoral.
 
Guard Dad said:
I figured it was more the girls' decisions that you remained a virgin.

OK, seriously...your point is well taken. I received similar talks, the one I remember the most was the "if you get put in jail, don't call me 'cause I'll let you rot there" talk. I didn't test him on that.
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Mine used to say I would have to sit there for a long time to think about what he was going to do to me when he did decide to pick me up. Like you, I didn't test my father on it either. When my friends wanted to do something that had the slightest chance of getting the police involved, I refused to participate.
 
Guard Dad said:
Even your article states it's due to education and availability of contraception (which I feel is a good thing), not a reduction in teens having sex, which the article also admits is up.

So we're doing better at preventing pregnancies, but not at preventing the act that causes them.
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My wife is a women's health nurse practitioner. A large percentage of her patients are teens still in high school and others drop outs who are sexually active. In Stephens County there are a lot of cases of gonorrhea and many among teens.
 
ShoeDiva said:
Bad behavior is one thing, and I think most of us can agree on raising our children to accept the consequences when they act out, but you are imposing your own beliefs when you talk about immoral behaviors. Some do not think that all that have been spoken of here are immoral.
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You might notice that I've kept my examples fairly generic and not used a lot of specifics for that very reason, because individuals vary some in their moral standards.

I'm referring more to general standards.

A slight majority of Americans still oppose same-sex marriage. A larger majority oppose transgenders using preferred restrooms.

So who is imposing their beliefs on who?
 
ShoeDiva said:
Bad behavior is one thing, and I think most of us can agree on raising our children to accept the consequences when they act out, but you are imposing your own beliefs when you talk about immoral behaviors. Some do not think that all that have been spoken of here are immoral.
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Guard Dad said:
You might notice that I've kept my examples fairly generic and not used a lot of specifics for that very reason, because individuals vary some in their moral standards.

I'm referring more to general standards.

A slight majority of Americans still oppose same-sex marriage. A larger majority oppose transgenders using preferred restrooms.

So who is imposing their beliefs on who?
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General ? Um, okay. (It is very hard to believe you are speaking in general when you started this thread with homosexual and transgender content and this last post 3 pages later to make your point you use homosexual and transgender issues. )
As I said, bad behavior is one thing, you speaking of immoral behaviors is not always the same thing. When you start using the word immoral, then you also start imposing your own (general you, because that is pretty much anyone) belief on moral verses immoral behavior.
 
ShoeDiva said:
General ? Um, okay. (It is very hard to believe you are speaking in general when you started this thread with homosexual and transgender content and this last post 3 pages later to make your point you use homosexual and transgender issues. )
As I said, bad behavior is one thing, you speaking of immoral behaviors is not always the same thing. When you start using the word immoral, then you also start imposing your own (general you, because that is pretty much anyone) belief on moral verses immoral behavior.
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You're ignoring the fact that "they" are the ones who have brought about change from accepted and established laws that were supported by the majority of Americans. Which means that "they" are the ones imposing their beliefs, not me.

How can you argue this?
 
Guard Dad said:
You're ignoring the fact that "they" are the ones who have brought about change from accepted and established laws that were supported by the majority of Americans. Which means that "they" are the ones imposing their beliefs, not me.

How can you argue this?
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Your topic is "immoral behavior". Transgender is a mental issue and not necessarily an immoral one. Homosexuality was classified that way as well.....at one time.
 
ShoeDiva said:
Epilepsy was also once classified as a mental issue and those that had it locked away.
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So, what your saying is that homosexuality and other gender issues are a neurological problem, and medication will help the sufferer cope.
I know that's not what you mean, however when you throw out the " well x was institutionalized" you are admitting that homosexuality is not normal, and therefore it is a mental issue.
 
gog8tors said:
So, what your saying is that homosexuality and other gender issues are a neurological problem, and medication will help the sufferer cope.
I know that's not what you mean, however when you throw out the " well x was institutionalized" you are admitting that homosexuality is not normal, and therefore it is a mental issue.
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Um, not sure where that stretch came from. I was pointing out the fact that things are misdiagnosed and mis-classified and gave an example of the fact that epilepsy was once considered a mental issue and they institutionalized them for that. With research and knowledge it was found not to be a mental issue and they no longer lock them up and throw away the key. What it is now has no bearing on my statement or point.
 
ShoeDiva said:
Um, not sure where that stretch came from. I was pointing out the fact that things are misdiagnosed and mis-classified and gave an example of the fact that epilepsy was once considered a mental issue and they institutionalized them for that. With research and knowledge it was found not to be a mental issue and they no longer lock them up and throw away the key. What it is now has no bearing on my statement or point.
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Because you keep using the way back when statements. Moreover you are comparing & contrasting the institutionalizing of mental health and the morality of homosexuals, and other gender confusion issues, So, it really isn't a stretch to conclude that even you think (deep down where you refuse to admit) that you think that those things are a mental issue, and a moral wrong.
I suggest you go back an reread your statements. Either you truly think that these folks are normal, or you don't.

Let's try this...... would you allow a boy to be in one of your pageants? Do you think the judges would be pressed by society to award this boy any of the crowns? After all it is affirmative action in full display. What if they didn't award the boy anything? Would they be called all the buzz words?

In the post about the son/mother sexual relationship, pretty much everyone agrees that it is wrong, but the son/mother think that it is morally normal thing. Just like the Muslims think it's ok to beat their wives, and to do all the other things their book tells them to do.

Most of us would agree that sex between close relatives (the law says you can't marry someone closer then a 3rd cousin) is morally wrong. People are arrested because of bestiality, and pedophilia. So, tell me when do the ones who say that morally they are correct, become accepted, and what will that do to society in general?
 
gog8tors said:
Because you keep using the way back when statements. Moreover you are comparing & contrasting the institutionalizing of mental health and the morality of homosexuals, and other gender confusion issues, So, it really isn't a stretch to conclude that even you think (deep down where you refuse to admit) that you think that those things are a mental issue, and a moral wrong.
I suggest you go back an reread your statements. Either you truly think that these folks are normal, or you don't.

Let's try this...... would you allow a boy to be in one of your pageants? Do you think the judges would be pressed by society to award this boy any of the crowns? After all it is affirmative action in full display. What if they didn't award the boy anything? Would they be called all the buzz words?

In the post about the son/mother sexual relationship, pretty much everyone agrees that it is wrong, but the son/mother think that it is morally normal thing. Just like the Muslims think it's ok to beat their wives, and to do all the other things their book tells them to do.

Most of us would agree that sex between close relatives (the law says you can't marry someone closer then a 3rd cousin) is morally wrong. People are arrested because of bestiality, and pedophilia. So, tell me when do the ones who say that morally they are correct, become accepted, and what will that do to society in general?
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Oh dear Lord.....now you've done it.
 
gog8tors said:
Because you keep using the way back when statements. Moreover you are comparing & contrasting the institutionalizing of mental health and the morality of homosexuals, and other gender confusion issues, So, it really isn't a stretch to conclude that even you think (deep down where you refuse to admit) that you think that those things are a mental issue, and a moral wrong.
I suggest you go back an reread your statements. Either you truly think that these folks are normal, or you don't.

Let's try this...... would you allow a boy to be in one of your pageants? Do you think the judges would be pressed by society to award this boy any of the crowns? After all it is affirmative action in full display. What if they didn't award the boy anything? Would they be called all the buzz words?

In the post about the son/mother sexual relationship, pretty much everyone agrees that it is wrong, but the son/mother think that it is morally normal thing. Just like the Muslims think it's ok to beat their wives, and to do all the other things their book tells them to do.

Most of us would agree that sex between close relatives (the law says you can't marry someone closer then a 3rd cousin) is morally wrong. People are arrested because of bestiality, and pedophilia. So, tell me when do the ones who say that morally they are correct, become accepted, and what will that do to society in general?
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Yeah, wow. Obviously you can not understand my statement. First it was in reference to what BS stated about how homosexuals used to be classified, second, why should I bother? You apparently do not understand what I am saying. Your assumptions are wrong and I suggest you reread the thread and not take what I am saying out of context.
 
ShoeDiva said:
Yeah, wow. Obviously you can not understand my statement. First it was in reference to what BS stated about how homosexuals used to be classified, second, why should I bother? You apparently do not understand what I am saying. Your assumptions are wrong and I suggest you reread the thread and not take what I am saying out of context.
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Yes, yes I know you think I took what you said out of context. That would presume that I didn't read the context to begin with. Which BTW would be a false assumption.

The fact is yes, many people were institutionalized because of neurological disorders, and mental disorders. However, as medicine, and understanding the body has evolved it has been decided that institutionalization of some if not all of these folks is wrong. Which is why there is also a lot of homelessness. Not just among our veterans.

You have compared the institutionalization of the mentally ill to the gender confused folks, and that is where I get that you either think deep down, that they are mentally ill, or you don't. Either way you are comparing a group (in the case of Epilepsy) that medication can help, to one that it may or may not help, depending on whether it is being studied as a mental issue.

The point (IMHO) of this topic is, has our acceptance of things that once were considered morally wrong been a determent to our society? The short answer is yes.
We accept and even celebrate the single moms. See all the FB memes.
Men are marginalized, and made to look foolish, or they are expected to be metro sexual in their dress, and mannerisms.
Divorce is encouraged for the slightest slight.
Marriage is undefined.
 
Good question to Diva that I would be interested in her answering.

Would you allow boys or boys who identify as girls in your pageants?
 
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