Suicide

[Grey Colson]

How about some of you post some "truths" that you believe the Bible clearly states that you can really hang your hat on....or do most believe there are none?

I'm finding this discussion quite curious. Of course I too have read verses that seem to expound every time I read them or a pastor will point out something I never realized previously. But one thing I have never experienced is the scripture contradicting itself.

What about where it says that the words on Jesus's cross were written in Aramaic (Hebrew), Greek and Latin in part of the gospels and yet in another gospel it says it was written in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (Hebrew)?
There are many other examples, but that is enough.

If you will PM me those verses, I will get an answer for you. One of the "many other examples" would interest me as well.

I will do so, but not at the moment.
I seriously thought that it was common knowledge that the bible contradicts itself in many places.
The main theme in the new testament remains the same, but there are many places in the new testament especially, where Matthew, Mark, Like and John give different accounts of events.
Again, the main theme is the same, but you cannot say it doesn't contradict itself.
There is even a sentence that no one has any idea what it means.
They teach it in theology school, at lest to the ones going for the PHDs.
A good friend of mine got his PHD in theology and we used to discuss this a lot.
He was the one who showed my that sentence, I think it was in Corinthians, but that was 30 years ago, hard to remember.

:thumbsup

There are hot debates all over the internet that can be Googled about word meanings that change what verses mean, contradictions, and biblical disagreements. These are people with PHD's that disagree. It is pretty fascinating and interesting and I am always surprised when I bring up interpretations people balk at that. :dunno
It is not to say something is right or wrong with what one believes, but that someone else might believe differently and that is not right or wrong either.

I enjoy the same thing.
Bottom line, is the bible true?
It is if you believe it is.
And isn't that what it is all about, faith?

With all due respect, that could also apply to Santa Clause.

It doesn't appear I am doing anything positive with this debate which defeats the purpose anyway. I have been mistaken to assume people would either believe the Bible to be either a fraud or the literal Word of God.

If in deed it is a fraud, the majority of us have waisted a lot of time.

 

[stradial]

How about some of you post some "truths" that you believe the Bible clearly states that you can really hang your hat on....or do most believe there are none?

I'm finding this discussion quite curious. Of course I too have read verses that seem to expound every time I read them or a pastor will point out something I never realized previously. But one thing I have never experienced is the scripture contradicting itself.

What about where it says that the words on Jesus's cross were written in Aramaic (Hebrew), Greek and Latin in part of the gospels and yet in another gospel it says it was written in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (Hebrew)?
There are many other examples, but that is enough.

If you will PM me those verses, I will get an answer for you. One of the "many other examples" would interest me as well.

I will do so, but not at the moment.
I seriously thought that it was common knowledge that the bible contradicts itself in many places.
The main theme in the new testament remains the same, but there are many places in the new testament especially, where Matthew, Mark, Like and John give different accounts of events.
Again, the main theme is the same, but you cannot say it doesn't contradict itself.
There is even a sentence that no one has any idea what it means.
They teach it in theology school, at lest to the ones going for the PHDs.
A good friend of mine got his PHD in theology and we used to discuss this a lot.
He was the one who showed my that sentence, I think it was in Corinthians, but that was 30 years ago, hard to remember.

:thumbsup

There are hot debates all over the internet that can be Googled about word meanings that change what verses mean, contradictions, and biblical disagreements. These are people with PHD's that disagree. It is pretty fascinating and interesting and I am always surprised when I bring up interpretations people balk at that. :dunno
It is not to say something is right or wrong with what one believes, but that someone else might believe differently and that is not right or wrong either.

I enjoy the same thing.
Bottom line, is the bible true?
It is if you believe it is.
And isn't that what it is all about, faith?

With all due respect, that could also apply to Santa Clause.

It doesn't appear I am doing anything positive with this debate which defeats the purpose anyway. I have been mistaken to assume people would either believe the Bible to be either a fraud or the literal Word of God.

If in deed it is a fraud, the majority of us have waisted a lot of time.

It is quite a leap from the bible having some contradictions to being a fraud.

 

[deewee]

My .02. There are many that use the bible for their own agenda, there are many false prophets, and there are many who are wrong in their "interpretation" of the bible. We are to handle the word of God responsibly, meaning we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding.

 

[Grey Colson]

How about some of you post some "truths" that you believe the Bible clearly states that you can really hang your hat on....or do most believe there are none?

I'm finding this discussion quite curious. Of course I too have read verses that seem to expound every time I read them or a pastor will point out something I never realized previously. But one thing I have never experienced is the scripture contradicting itself.

What about where it says that the words on Jesus's cross were written in Aramaic (Hebrew), Greek and Latin in part of the gospels and yet in another gospel it says it was written in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (Hebrew)?
There are many other examples, but that is enough.

If you will PM me those verses, I will get an answer for you. One of the "many other examples" would interest me as well.

I will do so, but not at the moment.
I seriously thought that it was common knowledge that the bible contradicts itself in many places.
The main theme in the new testament remains the same, but there are many places in the new testament especially, where Matthew, Mark, Like and John give different accounts of events.
Again, the main theme is the same, but you cannot say it doesn't contradict itself.
There is even a sentence that no one has any idea what it means.
They teach it in theology school, at lest to the ones going for the PHDs.
A good friend of mine got his PHD in theology and we used to discuss this a lot.
He was the one who showed my that sentence, I think it was in Corinthians, but that was 30 years ago, hard to remember.

:thumbsup

There are hot debates all over the internet that can be Googled about word meanings that change what verses mean, contradictions, and biblical disagreements. These are people with PHD's that disagree. It is pretty fascinating and interesting and I am always surprised when I bring up interpretations people balk at that. :dunno
It is not to say something is right or wrong with what one believes, but that someone else might believe differently and that is not right or wrong either.

I enjoy the same thing.
Bottom line, is the bible true?
It is if you believe it is.
And isn't that what it is all about, faith?

With all due respect, that could also apply to Santa Clause.

It doesn't appear I am doing anything positive with this debate which defeats the purpose anyway. I have been mistaken to assume people would either believe the Bible to be either a fraud or the literal Word of God.

If in deed it is a fraud, the majority of us have waisted a lot of time.

It is quite a leap from the bible having some contradictions to being a fraud.

I understand your comment, but we are not talking about something like my novel in which I know of a few mistakes/errors. All, by the way, by the fault of the last editor :Stick

What I mean is that for those of us who believe God to be perfect and in turn, His Word to be perfect, then there are only 2 ways to go. Now of course it has been translated into every language in the world, so I'm not talking about those types of flaws/errors (typos, etc.) I'm talking about it meaning what it says.

For example: If you read the verse stating that we are saved by faith and not of works lest any man should boast. And then find where it states the opposite, then the book is not worth the paper it's written on.

A fraud or the truth. Those are the only two options. Like being a little pregnant or a little married. Either you is or you ain't.

 

[stradial]

All I am saying is the statement that the bible does not contradict itself is not correct, not that the message is not correct.
It says that Jesus gave the "sermon on the mount" and in another gospel it says he gave that sermon on a plain.
The genealogy of Jesus differs between the gospels.

Judas is said to have died in two different ways, hanging is one version and falling to the ground and having his bowels burst open is another.
I was a kid when I noticed this contradiction, my 1st one.
I asked my mother about it.
She said that he hanged himself, then fell and his bowels burst open.
Even as a 8-10 yr old kid, I knew that couldn't be right.

I don't think any of the contradictions, at least to me, change the basic message, but they are there.
After all, the gospels of Matthew, Luke and John were written by people who were recording oral stories, not events they witnessed themselves.
I am not sure about Mark, but I think the same is true of that one also.

 

[ShoeDiva]

With all due respect, that could also apply to Santa Clause.

It doesn't appear I am doing anything positive with this debate which defeats the purpose anyway. I have been mistaken to assume people would either believe the Bible to be either a fraud or the literal Word of God.

If in deed it is a fraud, the majority of us have waisted a lot of time.

With all due respect it seems as if you are closed minded to seeing anything in anothers point of view. I do not believe anyone has stated the bible is a fraud. I do believe that many of us understand that people bring their faiths, beliefs and experiences to what they read and have a different take on what something means. If a preacher tells you that a verses means one thing and my priest tells me it really means another, is one wrong and one right? Or can both be applied and both be true? I think both. I believe God can speak to many through the verses and in different ways with the same words. Are some things flat out, no way to take them another way? Of course! I believe we all can agree that some things no matter who reads or teaches it can be taken no other way, but there are things that can be interpreted.

I have no issue with you believing every word, I just know that every word you believe is not the same as every word I believe, or Bob, Sue, Harry, etc etc etc....

 

[LisaC]

I understand your comment, but we are not talking about something like my novel in which I know of a few mistakes/errors. All, by the way, by the fault of the last editor :Stick

What I mean is that for those of us who believe God to be perfect and in turn, His Word to be perfect, then there are only 2 ways to go. Now of course it has been translated into every language in the world, so I'm not talking about those types of flaws/errors (typos, etc.) I'm talking about it meaning what it says.

For example: If you read the verse stating that we are saved by faith and not of works lest any man should boast. And then find where it states the opposite, then the book is not worth the paper it's written on.

A fraud or the truth. Those are the only two options. Like being a little pregnant or a little married. Either you is or you ain't.

What about James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone"? Would that contradict this?

 

[Boss 302]

How about some of you post some "truths" that you believe the Bible clearly states that you can really hang your hat on....or do most believe there are none?

I'm finding this discussion quite curious. Of course I too have read verses that seem to expound every time I read them or a pastor will point out something I never realized previously. But one thing I have never experienced is the scripture contradicting itself.

What about where it says that the words on Jesus's cross were written in Aramaic (Hebrew), Greek and Latin in part of the gospels and yet in another gospel it says it was written in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (Hebrew)?
There are many other examples, but that is enough.

In your two references to what languages the words were written the languages given are the same, just in different order. It's like Bob saying, "Tom, Harry, and Sam skipped school;" and David saying, "Sam, Tom, and Harry skipped school." Bob and David are still saying the same thing.

 

[stradial]

How about some of you post some "truths" that you believe the Bible clearly states that you can really hang your hat on....or do most believe there are none?

I'm finding this discussion quite curious. Of course I too have read verses that seem to expound every time I read them or a pastor will point out something I never realized previously. But one thing I have never experienced is the scripture contradicting itself.

What about where it says that the words on Jesus's cross were written in Aramaic (Hebrew), Greek and Latin in part of the gospels and yet in another gospel it says it was written in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (Hebrew)?
There are many other examples, but that is enough.

In your two references to what languages the words were written the languages given are the same, just in different order. It's like Bob saying, "Tom, Harry, and Sam skipped school;" and David saying, "Sam, Tom, and Harry skipped school." Bob and David are still saying the same thing.

I understand, but it is still a contradiction.
Just like how Judas died is a contradiction, albeit a bigger one.
Like I said, they contradictions don't change the basics of the story, but they are there.

 

[Boss 302]

How about some of you post some "truths" that you believe the Bible clearly states that you can really hang your hat on....or do most believe there are none?

I'm finding this discussion quite curious. Of course I too have read verses that seem to expound every time I read them or a pastor will point out something I never realized previously. But one thing I have never experienced is the scripture contradicting itself.

What about where it says that the words on Jesus's cross were written in Aramaic (Hebrew), Greek and Latin in part of the gospels and yet in another gospel it says it was written in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (Hebrew)?
There are many other examples, but that is enough.

In your two references to what languages the words were written the languages given are the same, just in different order. It's like Bob saying, "Tom, Harry, and Sam skipped school;" and David saying, "Sam, Tom, and Harry skipped school." Bob and David are still saying the same thing.

I understand, but it is still a contradiction.
Just like how Judas died is a contradiction, albeit a bigger one.
Like I said, they contradictions don't change the basics of the story, but they are there.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the contradiction as both give the same languages used on the sign. What difference does it make they put the languages in different order?

As far as Judas' suicide, this might help you. http://www.apologeticspress.org/ApPubPage.aspx?pub=1&issue=536&article=153

 

[stradial]

How about some of you post some "truths" that you believe the Bible clearly states that you can really hang your hat on....or do most believe there are none?

I'm finding this discussion quite curious. Of course I too have read verses that seem to expound every time I read them or a pastor will point out something I never realized previously. But one thing I have never experienced is the scripture contradicting itself.

What about where it says that the words on Jesus's cross were written in Aramaic (Hebrew), Greek and Latin in part of the gospels and yet in another gospel it says it was written in Latin, Greek and Aramaic (Hebrew)?
There are many other examples, but that is enough.

In your two references to what languages the words were written the languages given are the same, just in different order. It's like Bob saying, "Tom, Harry, and Sam skipped school;" and David saying, "Sam, Tom, and Harry skipped school." Bob and David are still saying the same thing.

I understand, but it is still a contradiction.
Just like how Judas died is a contradiction, albeit a bigger one.
Like I said, they contradictions don't change the basics of the story, but they are there.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the contradiction as both give the same languages used on the sign. What difference does it make they put the languages in different order?

As far as Judas' suicide, this might help you. http://www.apologeticspress.org/ApPubPage.aspx?pub=1&issue=536&article=153

Yeah, it doesn't help.
It is a contradiction.
But it is ok.

 

[LisaC]

This is somewhat confusing:

Romans 4:2: "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."



Then, there is this one. Was Achan the son of Carmi and great-grandson of Zerah OR was Achan the son of Zerah?

Joshua 7:1: "But the children of Israel committed a trespass regarding the accursed things, for Achan the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed things; so the anger of the Lord burned against the children of Israel."

Joshua 7:24: "Then Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, the silver, the garment, the wedge of gold, his sons, his daughters, his oxen, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and all that he had, and they brought them to the Valley of Achor."

 

[Madea]

This is somewhat confusing:

Romans 4:2: "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

For me, the above, on their own are taken out of context.

 

[ShoeDiva]

This is somewhat confusing:

Romans 4:2: "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

For me, the above, on their own are taken out of context.

I find that interesting you state that (not sarcastic interesting, really interesting) because would that not apply to many more than those when it comes to people stating a verse? Without context you can take it a few ways. (Well with some verses even in context 3 people could give you three answers. ) )

 

[LisaC]

This is somewhat confusing:

Romans 4:2: "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

For me, the above, on their own are taken out of context.

In what way? :dunno

 

[stradial]

I wish to again say, that at least to me, the (what I see as contradictions) in the bible do not affect the main point(s) of the bible.
I find them interesting, but try not to let them take away from the "moral" of the stories.
(and I do not use the word stories as in fables, just as in the bible is made up of stories about people and God)

 

[Madea]

This is somewhat confusing:

Romans 4:2: "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

For me, the above, on their own are taken out of context.

I find that interesting you state that (not sarcastic interesting, really interesting) because would that not apply to many more than those when it comes to people stating a verse? Without context you can take it a few ways. (Well with some verses even in context 3 people could give you three answers. ) )

I'm sure that's true of all 31,102 verses

 

[Madea]

This is somewhat confusing:

Romans 4:2: "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

For me, the above, on their own are taken out of context.

In what way? :dunno

I wish I had time to compare/contrast in context. I don't.

 

[stradial]

This is somewhat confusing:

Romans 4:2: "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James 2:24, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

For me, the above, on their own are taken out of context.

I find that interesting you state that (not sarcastic interesting, really interesting) because would that not apply to many more than those when it comes to people stating a verse? Without context you can take it a few ways. (Well with some verses even in context 3 people could give you three answers. ) )

I'm sure that's true of all 31,102 verses

OK, now that is cool that you know how many verses there are.
:thumbsup

 

[LisaC]

I wish to again say, that at least to me, the (what I see as contradictions) in the bible do not affect the main point(s) of the bible.
I find them interesting, but try not to let them take away from the "moral" of the stories.
(and I do not use the word stories as in fables, just as in the bible is made up of stories about people and God)

I believe the Bible is truth. However, I also believe that it is possible that some things have gotten misworded in the multiple translations of the Word.