Ok UPS. Let me see if I follow your "logic".

[Grey Colson]

This has been a good debate thread, but alas, I have work that must be done. Later all.

Anytime you run into 6 pages of civil debate...it's a good thing. Everyone involved did a great job in my opinion. 8) Now go watch my Bringing Down the House Thread N

 

[ShoeDiva]

This has been a good debate thread, but alas, I have work that must be done. Later all.

Anytime you run into 6 pages of civil debate...it's a good thing. Everyone involved did a great job in my opinion. 8) Now go watch my Bringing Down the House Thread N

:thumbsup

 

[LisaC]

I will continue to support businesses and other organizations that align themselves with my core values. Call me old fashioned, but there are plenty of organizations that support alternative lifestyles. Boys Scouts supports growing responsible men that have a strong belief in honesty and integrity, have an oath and law that express that belief. It's no secret what the Boy Scouts represent, if you don't like it, don't join, don't support them but give them the opportunity to continue as they always have.

It's a great program with a world wide following. Can't be all that bad.

I'm not saying that it's a bad program - they do a lot of great things for kids. BUT, they shouldn't exclude certain groups of kids (IF they are - I honestly don't know if they do or not). That's just wrong. If you only emulate straight behavior to straight kids, how are you going to help a confused kid figure out what his preference is?

So to continue to play devil's advocate (since I'm so good at it) ...

Could those kids not go to a different organization? If one does not exist, why not? As the world is changing it might be a great idea for somebody to start a like organization that is more open to others.

It's not the policy of the BSA to teach or discuss sexual orientation. In fact "sex" isn't in the program syllabus at all. The BSA requires parents address those issues with the boys. The leaders are volunteers and are not qualified to even approach a subject such as that. It's the same as a child attending private school, if something is not in line with the principles of that school, you will be asked to leave. BSA is a private organization. It's doesn't believe in homosexuality and it doesn't teach boys to like or dislike it, like I said it's only an issue when someone that has never been involved doesn't understand.

The more people try to "bust them up" the more difficult it becomes to teach the boys the core values of hard work, rewards for that hard work, integrity and honesty. BSA Oath requires the boys pledge an allegiance to God, Country and self, it that order. More time is then spent explaining why someone doesn't want Boy Scouts to do something.

UPS could have dropped their funding without the public statement, all would have been fine then. Now we spend the next 6 months telling the Boy Scouts how they should do something. Try telling that private school you want your child to attend with dyed black hair, nails painted black, body piercings and black clothing. See if they allow it.

But you said it's the goal of the BS to make these boys into men. To me, that means that they leaders model the behavior they want the boys to learn and I'm not saying or even suggesting that it means to teach them about sex, but if the men discuss how they are leaders in their homes, are good husbands, good fathers, etc. WHY NOT be willing to teach that to all boys? (It's kind of like the Bible tells us to go forth and make disciples of ALL nations....).

UPS probably made that announcement for the benefit of their corporate customers. Just as you like to choose to support like-minded business, a lot of large corporations do as well. It could be that UPS wanted to make sure that their customers know where they stand on discrimination and they waited until the Boy Scouts applied for a grant or it was time to renew the grant. And, UPS may have waited until then to make the decision in order to give the BS an opportunity to reverse their stance.

The private school would not allow it, but it holds ALL of the kids to that standard, without regard to race, sex, national origin, or sexual orientation.

But aren't they discriminating if they don't like all black stuff, what about berkas and face coverings required by some religions would they tolerate that? Didn't you agree to uphold a certain standard required by the school?? They have guidelines. Would they let an openly gay teacher spend a week or two in the woods with only a bunch of boys?? Would they even allow a lock in with an openly gay teacher that included only one sex?? The BSA wants nothing to do with sex education. They do have the right to limit membership, the supreme court agreed with them.

No they aren't discriminating because they hold all students to the same standard and they don't choose students based on any discriminatory factors. Those kids are told up front what the school guidelines are and that all students must follow them, including the dress code.

As to your other comments, Jerry Sandusky wasn't openly gay...

I'm not suggesting that they teach sex education or even discuss sexual orientation. I don't think that is the place for it. BUT, I am suggesting that they should not prohibit a gay boy from participating.

As for the Supreme Court - this isn't the first time I've disagreed with them. Look at Roe v. Wade and Obamacare...

 

[naturegirl]

I will continue to support businesses and other organizations that align themselves with my core values. Call me old fashioned, but there are plenty of organizations that support alternative lifestyles. Boys Scouts supports growing responsible men that have a strong belief in honesty and integrity, have an oath and law that express that belief. It's no secret what the Boy Scouts represent, if you don't like it, don't join, don't support them but give them the opportunity to continue as they always have.

It's a great program with a world wide following. Can't be all that bad.

I'm not saying that it's a bad program - they do a lot of great things for kids. BUT, they shouldn't exclude certain groups of kids (IF they are - I honestly don't know if they do or not). That's just wrong. If you only emulate straight behavior to straight kids, how are you going to help a confused kid figure out what his preference is?

So to continue to play devil's advocate (since I'm so good at it) ...

Could those kids not go to a different organization? If one does not exist, why not? As the world is changing it might be a great idea for somebody to start a like organization that is more open to others.

It's not the policy of the BSA to teach or discuss sexual orientation. In fact "sex" isn't in the program syllabus at all. The BSA requires parents address those issues with the boys. The leaders are volunteers and are not qualified to even approach a subject such as that. It's the same as a child attending private school, if something is not in line with the principles of that school, you will be asked to leave. BSA is a private organization. It's doesn't believe in homosexuality and it doesn't teach boys to like or dislike it, like I said it's only an issue when someone that has never been involved doesn't understand.

The more people try to "bust them up" the more difficult it becomes to teach the boys the core values of hard work, rewards for that hard work, integrity and honesty. BSA Oath requires the boys pledge an allegiance to God, Country and self, it that order. More time is then spent explaining why someone doesn't want Boy Scouts to do something.

UPS could have dropped their funding without the public statement, all would have been fine then. Now we spend the next 6 months telling the Boy Scouts how they should do something. Try telling that private school you want your child to attend with dyed black hair, nails painted black, body piercings and black clothing. See if they allow it.

But you said it's the goal of the BS to make these boys into men. To me, that means that they leaders model the behavior they want the boys to learn and I'm not saying or even suggesting that it means to teach them about sex, but if the men discuss how they are leaders in their homes, are good husbands, good fathers, etc. WHY NOT be willing to teach that to all boys? (It's kind of like the Bible tells us to go forth and make disciples of ALL nations....).

UPS probably made that announcement for the benefit of their corporate customers. Just as you like to choose to support like-minded business, a lot of large corporations do as well. It could be that UPS wanted to make sure that their customers know where they stand on discrimination and they waited until the Boy Scouts applied for a grant or it was time to renew the grant. And, UPS may have waited until then to make the decision in order to give the BS an opportunity to reverse their stance.

The private school would not allow it, but it holds ALL of the kids to that standard, without regard to race, sex, national origin, or sexual orientation.

But aren't they discriminating if they don't like all black stuff, what about berkas and face coverings required by some religions would they tolerate that? Didn't you agree to uphold a certain standard required by the school?? They have guidelines. Would they let an openly gay teacher spend a week or two in the woods with only a bunch of boys?? Would they even allow a lock in with an openly gay teacher that included only one sex?? The BSA wants nothing to do with sex education. They do have the right to limit membership, the supreme court agreed with them.

No they aren't discriminating because they hold all students to the same standard and they don't choose students based on any discriminatory factors. Those kids are told up front what the school guidelines are and that all students must follow them, including the dress code.

As to your other comments, Jerry Sandusky wasn't openly gay...

I'm not suggesting that they teach sex education or even discuss sexual orientation. I don't think that is the place for it. BUT, I am suggesting that they should not prohibit a gay boy from participating.

As for the Supreme Court - this isn't the first time I've disagreed with them. Look at Roe v. Wade and Obamacare...

I understand but there a many, many organizations that will allow a boy to experience the same things as scouting offers. Why Boy Scouts?? Why can't he join one of those other organizations?? I don't support Boy Scouts because they don't allow gay leaders, but I do support their right to do so. I will defend them to the end as a private organization to have that option. Politically correct isn't always the right way to do things.

 

[LisaC]

I understand but there a many, many organizations that will allow a boy to experience the same things as scouting offers. Why Boy Scouts?? Why can't he join one of those other organizations?? I don't support Boy Scouts because they don't allow gay leaders, but I do support their right to do so. I will defend them to the end as a private organization to have that option. Politically correct isn't always the right way to do things.

Again, this goes to my question about the back of the bus - black folks had other ways to get around, why the bus? Because it is the most convenient and the most accessible. I'm not asking for politically correct, I'm not asking them to embrace the gay lifestyle, and I'm not asking them to change their philosophy or stance on homosexuality. I'm merely expecting them to treat a gay boy that wants to be an Eagle Scout the same way they would treat a straight boy with the same ambition...

 

[naturegirl]

I understand but there a many, many organizations that will allow a boy to experience the same things as scouting offers. Why Boy Scouts?? Why can't he join one of those other organizations?? I don't support Boy Scouts because they don't allow gay leaders, but I do support their right to do so. I will defend them to the end as a private organization to have that option. Politically correct isn't always the right way to do things.

Again, this goes to my question about the back of the bus - black folks had other ways to get around, why the bus? Because it is the most convenient and the most accessible. I'm not asking for politically correct, I'm not asking them to embrace the gay lifestyle, and I'm not asking them to change their philosophy or stance on homosexuality. I'm merely expecting them to treat a gay boy that wants to be an Eagle Scout the same way they would treat a straight boy with the same ambition...

Because the bus is public, the BSA is private. If you can't achieve the requirements for graduation, would you expect to get a diploma?? One big stumbling block for most Eagle Scouts is their relationship with God and their church. It is their oath that them believe in God, Country and Self. If their religion supports gays and their charter organization also supports gays, they should have no problem achieving that goal. I'm not sure there is a chartered organization that exists within BSA that supports a gay lifestyle. It is a requirement of Eagle.

 

[ShoeDiva]

I understand but there a many, many organizations that will allow a boy to experience the same things as scouting offers. Why Boy Scouts?? Why can't he join one of those other organizations?? I don't support Boy Scouts because they don't allow gay leaders, but I do support their right to do so. I will defend them to the end as a private organization to have that option. Politically correct isn't always the right way to do things.

Which organizations are those? I think UM asked too and if you have already answered I am sorry, I might have missed it. (this is a bit long! ) )

 

[LisaC]

I understand but there a many, many organizations that will allow a boy to experience the same things as scouting offers. Why Boy Scouts?? Why can't he join one of those other organizations?? I don't support Boy Scouts because they don't allow gay leaders, but I do support their right to do so. I will defend them to the end as a private organization to have that option. Politically correct isn't always the right way to do things.

Again, this goes to my question about the back of the bus - black folks had other ways to get around, why the bus? Because it is the most convenient and the most accessible. I'm not asking for politically correct, I'm not asking them to embrace the gay lifestyle, and I'm not asking them to change their philosophy or stance on homosexuality. I'm merely expecting them to treat a gay boy that wants to be an Eagle Scout the same way they would treat a straight boy with the same ambition...

Because the bus is public, the BSA is private. If you can't achieve the requirements for graduation, would you expect to get a diploma?? One big stumbling block for most Eagle Scouts is their relationship with God and their church. It is their oath that them believe in God, Country and Self. If their religion supports gays and their charter organization also supports gays, they should have no problem achieving that goal. I'm not sure there is a chartered organization that exists within BSA that supports a gay lifestyle. It is a requirement of Eagle.

Because while the BSA does not receive federal funds, it does receive access to federally funded schools , military and land. There are affirmative action laws for government contractors and I don't think that it's that much of a stretch for the BSA to be considered in that realm. If you're going to do business with the government, in any form, you should be held to the same standards.

ETA: There are Christian churches that accept homosexuals as members.

 

[naturegirl]

I understand but there a many, many organizations that will allow a boy to experience the same things as scouting offers. Why Boy Scouts?? Why can't he join one of those other organizations?? I don't support Boy Scouts because they don't allow gay leaders, but I do support their right to do so. I will defend them to the end as a private organization to have that option. Politically correct isn't always the right way to do things.

Again, this goes to my question about the back of the bus - black folks had other ways to get around, why the bus? Because it is the most convenient and the most accessible. I'm not asking for politically correct, I'm not asking them to embrace the gay lifestyle, and I'm not asking them to change their philosophy or stance on homosexuality. I'm merely expecting them to treat a gay boy that wants to be an Eagle Scout the same way they would treat a straight boy with the same ambition...

Because the bus is public, the BSA is private. If you can't achieve the requirements for graduation, would you expect to get a diploma?? One big stumbling block for most Eagle Scouts is their relationship with God and their church. It is their oath that them believe in God, Country and Self. If their religion supports gays and their charter organization also supports gays, they should have no problem achieving that goal. I'm not sure there is a chartered organization that exists within BSA that supports a gay lifestyle. It is a requirement of Eagle.

Because while the BSA does not receive federal funds, it does receive access to federally funded schools , military and land. There are affirmative action laws for government contractors and I don't think that it's that much of a stretch for the BSA to be considered in that realm. If you're going to do business with the government, in any form, you should be held to the same standards.

ETA: There are Christian churches that accept homosexuals as members.

No BSA has not been allowed to use federal facilities for about 15 years. They pay to use the military bases for the Jamboree every four years. The School is used for recruiting as are many other youth organizations. 4H, Boys & Girls clubs. If BSA uses a school for any activity, we have to pay for it, just as everyone else.

Christian churches may accept homosexuals as members but they don't charter Scout units.

 

[unionmom]

In response to the blacks/bus thing ...

Once we move past the government sponsored aspect of the buses vs. the private sponsorship of the BSA the other difference for me is that I view the BSA and their position on gays to be more of a male/female thing. In other words I see it very much like no men allowed at Spa Lady and no women allowed at VMI. (Now VMI was forced to change their policy and the quality of the experience has gone downhill but that's not my point.)

Additionally, I find it offensive to compared gays to blacks when looking at rights. Blacks had much bigger, much more real restriction on them as not just citizens but human beings. At what point in our nation's history have gays been referred to as less than a whole human being? And at what point have they been denied the right to vote? Sure there are people that treat them like crap based on their sexual orientation and that sucks but their issues are not the same as blacks in this country.

 

[naturegirl]

In response to the blacks/bus thing ...

Once we move past the government sponsored aspect of the buses vs. the private sponsorship of the BSA the other difference for me is that I view the BSA and their position on gays to be more of a male/female thing. In other words I see it very much like no men allowed at Spa Lady and no women allowed at VMI. (Now VMI was forced to change their policy and the quality of the experience has gone downhill but that's not my point.)

Additionally, I find it offensive to compared gays to blacks when looking at rights. Blacks had much bigger, much more real restriction on them as not just citizens but human beings. At what point in our nation's history have gays been referred to as less than a whole human being? And at what point have they been denied the right to vote? Sure there are people that treat them like crap based on their sexual orientation and that sucks but their issues are not the same as blacks in this country.

:thumbsup

 

[stradial]

There have been gay kids in Boy Scouts and there will be gay kids in Boy Scouts.
Not sure how the BS could tell unless the kid themselves said something.
Maybe I am old fashioned, but gay or straight, keep your love life to yourself.

(this does not apply to a hot 20 something lesbian, feel free to share if my lending an ear will help)

 

[naturegirl]

There have been gay kids in Boy Scouts and there will be gay kids in Boy Scouts.
Not sure how the BS could tell unless the kid themselves said something.
Maybe I am old fashioned, but gay or straight, keep your love life to yourself.

(this does not apply to a hot 20 something lesbian, feel free to share if my lending an ear will help)

You crack me up!! Yes, it's a don't ask, don't tell environment. If you wanna come out as a minor, it will probably cost you Eagle Rank.

 

[Guard Dad]

Additionally, I find it offensive to compared gays to blacks when looking at rights. Blacks had much bigger, much more real restriction on them as not just citizens but human beings. At what point in our nation's history have gays been referred to as less than a whole human being? And at what point have they been denied the right to vote? Sure there are people that treat them like crap based on their sexual orientation and that sucks but their issues are not the same as blacks in this country.

Agreed! Race and sexual orientation do not compare.

 

[unionmom]

Well crap. GD agreed with something that I posted? I may have to reconsider my comments.

 

[Guard Dad]

Well crap. GD agreed with something that I posted? I may have to reconsider my comments.

It just means you were right....for once.

 

[LisaC]

Additionally, I find it offensive to compared gays to blacks when looking at rights. Blacks had much bigger, much more real restriction on them as not just citizens but human beings. At what point in our nation's history have gays been referred to as less than a whole human being? And at what point have they been denied the right to vote? Sure there are people that treat them like crap based on their sexual orientation and that sucks but their issues are not the same as blacks in this country.

Agreed! Race and sexual orientation do not compare.

Especially not to conservative straight white folks...

 

[Guard Dad]

Additionally, I find it offensive to compared gays to blacks when looking at rights. Blacks had much bigger, much more real restriction on them as not just citizens but human beings. At what point in our nation's history have gays been referred to as less than a whole human being? And at what point have they been denied the right to vote? Sure there are people that treat them like crap based on their sexual orientation and that sucks but their issues are not the same as blacks in this country.

Agreed! Race and sexual orientation do not compare.

Especially not to conservative straight white folks...

That has nothing to do with it. Race is a totally different issue than something that is behavioral. And yes, sexual orientation is behavioral whether straight or gay.

 

[newsjunky]

Additionally, I find it offensive to compared gays to blacks when looking at rights. Blacks had much bigger, much more real restriction on them as not just citizens but human beings. At what point in our nation's history have gays been referred to as less than a whole human being? And at what point have they been denied the right to vote? Sure there are people that treat them like crap based on their sexual orientation and that sucks but their issues are not the same as blacks in this country.

Agreed! Race and sexual orientation do not compare.

Especially not to conservative straight white folks...

That has nothing to do with it. Race is a totally different issue than something that is behavioral. And yes, sexual orientation is behavioral whether straight or gay.

Yep! :thumbsup

 

[ShoeDiva]

Additionally, I find it offensive to compared gays to blacks when looking at rights. Blacks had much bigger, much more real restriction on them as not just citizens but human beings. At what point in our nation's history have gays been referred to as less than a whole human being? And at what point have they been denied the right to vote? Sure there are people that treat them like crap based on their sexual orientation and that sucks but their issues are not the same as blacks in this country.

Agreed! Race and sexual orientation do not compare.

Especially not to conservative straight white folks...

That has nothing to do with it. Race is a totally different issue than something that is behavioral. And yes, sexual orientation is behavioral whether straight or gay.

Yep! :thumbsup

Okay, but what are your thoughts on the original subject? ) ^^ That was not it.