HOPE Scholarship Woes Continue to Grow

[Foxmeister]

I'm a firm believer the eligibility should be based upon SAT or ACT scores. The scholarship should be awarded by academic performance, not padded grades teachers are giving students.

http://www.ajc.com/news/hopes-future-may-be-1311255.html

 

[ShoeDiva]

I totally disagree with you about only the SAT & ACT being the deciding factor on eligibility. Many kids work their tails off to get 3.4 and above and do not test well throughout the years, whether it be the grad tests, eocts, or the SAT/ACT. All of their grades are not "padded" and without the Hope might not be able to go to college.

I will give you some might have padding with random recovery grades, but out of all the teachers my child has had in HS, and the ones I am close with, they do not do that in high school as they do in the lower grades. Mine has messed up on one test. He did more work to be able to re-take that one test (2 years ago) he has made sure never to have it happen again.

What about the student that tests great, has a lower GPA, sleeps in school, and doesn't even care about college? That child will qualify to get Hope before someone with a lower score, higher GPA, and cares? Sure, they can work or get loans and still go, but if the Hope is there they need to look at more factors than one test.

I have no issue with the SAT/ACT being included, just for it to be the only factor.

 

[Foxmeister]

How in the heck can a kid maintain a 3.4 GPA or higher and not test well? I don't understand that at all. Didn't a student with a 3.5 GPA take tests for their grades?

I do believe we had a discussion before about HOPE and in regards to how 25% of HOPE scholarship recepients were having to take remedial classes their freshman year of college. That statistic alone shows how our public schools are FAILING miserably when an "honor roll" student has to take remedial Math, Science or English classes during their freshman year of college. Schools shouldn't let students have "do-overs" when they fail a test. If a kid can't "do well" on testing in high school; how do you expect them to do well on tests in college? That's just another example of where our public schools are not adequately preparing students for college.

He/she who gets all A's and B's in high school, but doesn't test well when it comes to the SAT/ACT is nothing more than an excuse.

 

[Foxmeister]

Some important statistics I would like to see are, what percentage of students who start college using the HOPE scholarship actually graduate with a degree. Out of those who don't, what percentage flunked out? Of those who flunked out what were the average SAT/ACT score?

I think those need to be looked at when determining what type of reform HOPE needs. The last thing the state needs to start doing is borrowing money against future lottery revenue. That could cause serious deficit problems for the state in the future.

 

[ShoeDiva]

How in the heck can a kid maintain a 3.4 GPA or higher and not test well? I don't understand that at all. Didn't a student with a 3.5 GPA take tests for their grades?

I do believe we had a discussion before about HOPE and in regards to how 25% of HOPE scholarship recepients were having to take remedial classes their freshman year of college. That statistic alone shows how our public schools are FAILING miserably when an "honor roll" student has to take remedial Math, Science or English classes during their freshman year of college. Schools shouldn't let students have "do-overs" when they fail a test. If a kid can't "do well" on testing in high school; how do you expect them to do well on tests in college? That's just another example of where our public schools are not adequately preparing students for college.

He/she who gets all A's and B's in high school, but doesn't test well when it comes to the SAT/ACT is nothing more than an excuse.

Not an excuse, based on facts, taking a one hour test verse a 3+ hour test does make a difference in many a childs score.

 

[Foxmeister]

Then the parents and the school did not properly prepare the student for the test. Perhaps the student didn't test well because the parents created too much pressure. I still stand by my original opinion.

 

[ShoeDiva]

Some important statistics I would like to see are, what percentage of students who start college using the HOPE scholarship actually graduate with a degree. Out of those who don't, what percentage flunked out? Of those who flunked out what were the average SAT/ACT score?

I think those need to be looked at when determining what type of reform HOPE needs. The last thing the state needs to start doing is borrowing money against future lottery revenue. That could cause serious deficit problems for the state in the future.

Funny, last night we were just discussing some things regarding Hope and pre-K.
Three of my closest friends are kindergarten teachers and say without the childs paperwork they would incorrectly identify which one stayed home with mom verses those that went to a pre-K program.
I agree borrowing against future lottery is not the answer.

 

[ShoeDiva]

Then the parents and the school did not properly prepare the student for the test. Perhaps the student didn't test well because the parents created too much pressure. I still stand by my original opinion.

You can, but I respectfully disagree. I am seeing it on a daily basis with kids this year. Maybe pressure, nerves, whatever does play into a lower score, but to me, that is just another factor in not testing well.

 

[Foxmeister]

Then the parents and the school did not properly prepare the student for the test. Perhaps the student didn't test well because the parents created too much pressure. I still stand by my original opinion.

You can, but I respectfully disagree. I am seeing it on a daily basis with kids this year. Maybe pressure, nerves, whatever does play into a lower score, but to me, that is just another factor in not testing well.

Still not buying it. I'm sticking to my opinion with the high number of honor roll high school students using the HOPE scholarship is due to inflated grades and that's why the SAT/ACT should be used.

 

[ShoeDiva]

Then the parents and the school did not properly prepare the student for the test. Perhaps the student didn't test well because the parents created too much pressure. I still stand by my original opinion.

You can, but I respectfully disagree. I am seeing it on a daily basis with kids this year. Maybe pressure, nerves, whatever does play into a lower score, but to me, that is just another factor in not testing well.

Still not buying it. I'm sticking to my opinion with the high number of honor roll high school students using the HOPE scholarship is due to inflated grades and that's why the SAT/ACT should be used.

Based on data that suggested that HOPE was resulting in higher average
SAT scores for Georgia colleges and universities (because academically high
achievers decided not to go out of state for college), researchers also began to
look at how HOPE might be changing the competition among colleges for both
high achievers and those just below this achievement level. In 2001 and 2002,
Cornwell and Mustard reported that HOPE did indeed have the effect of helping
Georgia colleges retain high achievers.4 However, it also appeared to result in
increases in Georgia residents who could not meet the standards for Georgia’s
flagship universities choosing to attend prominent out-of-state colleges (e.g.,
University of Florida, Auburn University) that were considered to be less
selective than Georgia’s top-ranked institutions.
As HOPE benefits increased and eligibility standards became more stringent,
the difficulty to obtain and keep a HOPE Scholarship also likely increased. This
pressure may have led students and their families to attempt to influence teachers
or even entire school systems to be more lenient in terms of how students are
graded. Over time, such leniency would be evidenced by systematic grade inflation.
In 2002, Rubenstein and Henry examined this issue and found that HOPE
incentives appear to have increased educational quality without causing grade
inflation.5 These researchers found that in addition to HOPE increasing the
number of students credited with high academic performance, the program
also was responsible for a reduction in the disparity in the academic performance
of different racial groups. Overall, according to these researchers,
HOPE seems to motivate students and their families to commit greater effort
to schooling.

http://www.cviog.uga.edu/pdf/free-downloads/hope-joint-study-commission-report

Some think like you do and they have studied it and have NOT found that grade inflation is happening. It is also showing that SAT/ACT scores overall have increased (in various studies including this one) even though ours are lower than the US standard.

 

[Foxmeister]

You still can't convince me; not when 25% of college freshman using HOPE are taking remedial classes in Math, Science, and English.

 

[ShoeDiva]

You still can't convince me; not when 25% of college freshman using HOPE are taking remedial classes in Math, Science, and English.

Where do you get that? I can't find that, and my friends are teaching right now, so I can't ask. LOL

 

[newsjunky]

If a child does not have a 3.7 GPA or above they do not get a full scholarship from hope. The full scholarship is not as good as it once was. So many kids are applying that they can't continue to provide it they way they have in the past. I am not sure I like this but the Governor is planning to make a new category that will be needs based. I wonder how much grades will count in that category?

 

[ShoeDiva]

If a child does not have a 3.7 GPA or above they do not get a full scholarship from hope. The full scholarship is not as good as it once was. So many kids are applying that they can't continue to provide it they way they have in the past. I am not sure I like this but the Governor is planning to make a new category that will be needs based. I wonder how much grades will count in that category?

Very true. The change impacted a lot of kids this year. I personally do not like the needs basis, but that is a personal preference. According to all the forms we filled out, we basically do not need help. (Not speaking of Hope just in general) Sure, tell that to the mortgage company. LOL
I would assume though that the needs category would still have at least a "B" average associated with it, but who knows what they will implement?

 

[newsjunky]

If a child does not have a 3.7 GPA or above they do not get a full scholarship from hope. The full scholarship is not as good as it once was. So many kids are applying that they can't continue to provide it they way they have in the past. I am not sure I like this but the Governor is planning to make a new category that will be needs based. I wonder how much grades will count in that category?

Very true. The change impacted a lot of kids this year. I personally do not like the needs basis, but that is a personal preference. According to all the forms we filled out, we basically do not need help. (Not speaking of Hope just in general) Sure, tell that to the mortgage company. LOL
I would assume though that the needs category would still have at least a "B" average associated with it, but who knows what they will implement?

I do not know and I would have a BIG problem with it if it did not. If they find money to add a category like that will it take from others who have worked their rears off to get help so they can get a college education. Their parents may have jobs but that may not mean they make enough to take care of their families and pay for college too.

 

[mei lan]

He/she who gets all A's and B's in high school, but doesn't test well when it comes to the SAT/ACT is nothing more than an excuse.

Not getting in the middle of this whole thing because I really don't care, but some people just don't take tests well. As in, HORRIBLY not well. Esp. larger standardized tests. Not making excuses, because such things come to everyone in life and you have to deal. I'm just saying that I've known some very smart people who are the lousiest test-takers EVER (my sister is one). I, OTOH, could give test material a cursory glance and ace the test, because I have this gift that I'm able to know what they're looking for. (Generally speaking, of course.) But some folks really do have this problem. I personally think the government should butt out of higher education financing altogether. Then prices would fall, and people wouldn't need hope grants.

 

[newsjunky]

He/she who gets all A's and B's in high school, but doesn't test well when it comes to the SAT/ACT is nothing more than an excuse.

Not getting in the middle of this whole thing because I really don't care, but some people just don't take tests well. As in, HORRIBLY not well. Esp. larger standardized tests. Not making excuses, because such things come to everyone in life and you have to deal. I'm just saying that I've known some very smart people who are the lousiest test-takers EVER (my sister is one). I, OTOH, could give test material a cursory glance and ace the test, because I have this gift that I'm able to know what they're looking for. (Generally speaking, of course.) But some folks really do have this problem. I personally think the government should butt out of higher education financing altogether. Then prices would fall, and people wouldn't need hope grants.

All college loans have to go through the government now don't they? Wasn't that little gem put into the Heathcare Bill or was it another Bill?

 

[ShoeDiva]

He/she who gets all A's and B's in high school, but doesn't test well when it comes to the SAT/ACT is nothing more than an excuse.

Not getting in the middle of this whole thing because I really don't care, but some people just don't take tests well. As in, HORRIBLY not well. Esp. larger standardized tests. Not making excuses, because such things come to everyone in life and you have to deal. I'm just saying that I've known some very smart people who are the lousiest test-takers EVER (my sister is one). I, OTOH, could give test material a cursory glance and ace the test, because I have this gift that I'm able to know what they're looking for. (Generally speaking, of course.) But some folks really do have this problem. I personally think the government should butt out of higher education financing altogether. Then prices would fall, and people wouldn't need hope grants.

:snicker: I think we were the only ones up when he posted and I responded.
What you described is exactly what I have seen this year first hand. I know that before I might have had a different opinion because I am like you and never really had an issue with tests, and never put much stock into the standardized tests like the CRCT they take in GA. When kids for the last year started telling me their scores on the SAT/ACT I was shocked. Some of these kids are smart, very smart, beyond their years! I came to the realization that some just suck at test taking.

I never realized that (until this year) that we had to go through the gov't for loans! It made no sense to me why.

 

[lotstodo]

Call me a Commie, but here goes. Miller originally proposed this as a merit and need based scholarship. It had a $100,000 income limit. In 1995, with money pouring in in much larger quantities than anticipated, that limit was dropped.

Here it is in a nutshell. The Hope Scholarship was established so that no Georgia student with good grades would have to forgo college because of a lack of money. That was the purpose. The purpose was not to transfer wealth from lottery players to all people with kids in college, but that's exactly what it has become. If we abhor a transfer of wealth from the haves to the have nots for political reasons, we must equally admonish the reverse.

We want all well qualified Georgia students to get a good education regardless of means. That's the goal. For that reason, I say re institute an income cap. We are not assuming the responsibility to save for an education, and we don't need to subsidize the education of the well to do at the expense of those without sufficient means.

 

[unionmom]

Call me a Commie, but here goes. Miller originally proposed this as a merit and need based scholarship. It had a $100,000 income limit. In 1995, with money pouring in in much larger quantities than anticipated, that limit was dropped.

Here it is in a nutshell. The Hope Scholarship was established so that no Georgia student with good grades would have to forgo college because of a lack of money. That was the purpose. The purpose was not to transfer wealth from lottery players to all people with kids in college, but that's exactly what it has become. If we abhor a transfer of wealth from the haves to the have nots for political reasons, we must equally admonish the reverse.

We want all well qualified Georgia students to get a good education regardless of means. That's the goal. For that reason, I say re institute an income cap. We are not assuming the responsibility to save for an education, and we don't need to subsidize the education of the well to do at the expense of those without sufficient means.

::ditto +t