Women in combat makes selective service illegal.

LisaC said:
Guard Dad said:
Admittedly, I have never served in the military. But I do know something about leadership and command structure.

I see this same as I did the gay issue...the bureaucrats need to keep their nose out of it and let the military commanders make these decisions. They are the ones who best know how to manage the armed forces, not any of us.


Yeah, gays in the military turned out to be a non-issue.... This will as well.

Do we know that for sure? Even if there are/where problems, we would hear about it because it would be extremely politically correct and any military commander who spoke out would be fired.

Yes, the military is under civilian authority as per the constitution. But I don't think the intent was to micromanage them. The C-I-C should set goals and parameters, and then allow them to achieve those goals as they know best within the parameters set for them. History has shown that most every time congress micromanages the military, it is a mess. Think Vietnam if you want a glaring example from modern history. Black Hawk Down is another. People die because idiot politician stick their noses where they don't belong.
 
LisaC said:
Guard Dad said:
Admittedly, I have never served in the military. But I do know something about leadership and command structure.

I see this same as I did the gay issue...the bureaucrats need to keep their nose out of it and let the military commanders make these decisions. They are the ones who best know how to manage the armed forces, not any of us.


Yeah, gays in the military turned out to be a non-issue.... This will as well.

I have many friends still on active duty in leadership positions. All of us predicted that not that many gays in the Army would come out of the closet once DADT was revoked. Those friends of mine have not had one single solider come out and say they were gay. Now once they start coming out, it will be an issue.
 
I think we have biological differences – it has nothing to do with Nature/ Nurture. The Universities of the 1980’s crammed that crap down my generation’s throats. Once we had kids and put them all together at a birthday bash you could immediately see the difference in boys and girls.

I think for some women, serving in the military might be their best fit… their gift… I do wonder if many are not a little heavier with testosterone than other women are?

Lifting the Combat Ban for women will allow the women who serve now, to receive the proper training for the types of combat situations they already 'unofficially' find themselves a part of.

Remember, more than 280,000 women deployed during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. As of last year, more than 800 women had been wounded in the two wars and more than 130 had died.



In the military, serving in combat positions like the infantry remains crucial to career advancement. Women have long said that by not recognizing their real service, the military has unfairly held them back.


Maj. Mary Jennings Hegar, an Air National Guard helicopter pilot, was shot down, returned fire and was wounded while on the ground in Afghanistan, but could not seek combat leadership positions because the Defense Department did not officially acknowledge her experience as combat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Could we women pick up a gun and defend our Nation, house, and children if we had to? ... He!! yeah :elmergun ... Would it be a career path many of us women seek - doubtful. :girlsaysno
 
Far West said:
I think we have biological differences – it has nothing to do with Nature/ Nurture. The Universities of the 1980’s crammed that crap down my generation’s throats. Once we had kids and put them all together at a birthday bash you could immediately see the difference in boys and girls.

I think for some women, serving in the military might be their best fit… their gift… I do wonder if many are not a little heavier with testosterone than other women are?

Lifting the Combat Ban for women will allow the women who serve now, to receive the proper training for the types of combat situations they already 'unofficially' find themselves a part of.

Remember, more than 280,000 women deployed during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. As of last year, more than 800 women had been wounded in the two wars and more than 130 had died.



In the military, serving in combat positions like the infantry remains crucial to career advancement. Women have long said that by not recognizing their real service, the military has unfairly held them back.


Maj. Mary Jennings Hegar, an Air National Guard helicopter pilot, was shot down, returned fire and was wounded while on the ground in Afghanistan, but could not seek combat leadership positions because the Defense Department did not officially acknowledge her experience as combat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Could we women pick up a gun and defend our Nation, house, and children if we had to? ... He!! yeah :elmergun ... Would it be a career path many of us women seek - doubtful. :girlsaysno

I have to throw down the BS card on the claim women don't get leadership roles in the Army. I've had female company commanders, battalion commanders, and brigade commanders. I even had a female general as a commander. I served both in the Military Police Corps and Military Intelligence Corps. Neither one of those career fields made combat experience a requirement for leadership or command positions. Any woman who says she was passed over for promotion because she didn't have "combat experience" is lying through her friggin' teeth.
 
Foxmeister said:
Far West said:
I think we have biological differences – it has nothing to do with Nature/ Nurture. The Universities of the 1980’s crammed that crap down my generation’s throats. Once we had kids and put them all together at a birthday bash you could immediately see the difference in boys and girls.

I think for some women, serving in the military might be their best fit… their gift… I do wonder if many are not a little heavier with testosterone than other women are?

Lifting the Combat Ban for women will allow the women who serve now, to receive the proper training for the types of combat situations they already 'unofficially' find themselves a part of.

Remember, more than 280,000 women deployed during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. As of last year, more than 800 women had been wounded in the two wars and more than 130 had died.



In the military, serving in combat positions like the infantry remains crucial to career advancement. Women have long said that by not recognizing their real service, the military has unfairly held them back.


Maj. Mary Jennings Hegar, an Air National Guard helicopter pilot, was shot down, returned fire and was wounded while on the ground in Afghanistan, but could not seek combat leadership positions because the Defense Department did not officially acknowledge her experience as combat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Could we women pick up a gun and defend our Nation, house, and children if we had to? ... He!! yeah :elmergun ... Would it be a career path many of us women seek - doubtful. :girlsaysno

I have to throw down the BS card on the claim women don't get leadership roles in the Army. I've had female company commanders, battalion commanders, and brigade commanders. I even had a female general as a commander. I served both in the Military Police Corps and Military Intelligence Corps. Neither one of those career fields made combat experience a requirement for leadership or command positions. Any woman who says she was passed over for promotion because she didn't have "combat experience" is lying through her friggin' teeth.

Good to know. That is the one thing I thought should change if indeed true... :thumbsup
 
ShoeDiva said:
Winchester said:
Guard Dad said:
What about female soldiers like Jessica Lynch that was captured and raped?

Apparently, rape of female soldiers is not uncommon. This report claims one in three is raped. That is unacceptable to me.


http://www.topix.com/forum/world/china/TR1P7R1GM0I0PMCAP

There's also a story that she was not raped, that it was made up by the brass to discourage women to join the army.


Back on topic, there will be no way to tell if women can do the job unless they are allowed to try out. To say all women cannot because of physical differences is just BS.

The same thing was said about women in law enforcement years ago, it was said again at the start of the Iraq war. Well, there were a lot of women who found themselves in the middle of a war very quickly. It's all just an excuse to protect the boys club.

You have become one of my favorite posters today. :thumbsup

:love
 
Foxmeister said:
Far West said:
I think we have biological differences – it has nothing to do with Nature/ Nurture. The Universities of the 1980’s crammed that crap down my generation’s throats. Once we had kids and put them all together at a birthday bash you could immediately see the difference in boys and girls.

I think for some women, serving in the military might be their best fit… their gift… I do wonder if many are not a little heavier with testosterone than other women are?

Lifting the Combat Ban for women will allow the women who serve now, to receive the proper training for the types of combat situations they already 'unofficially' find themselves a part of.

Remember, more than 280,000 women deployed during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. As of last year, more than 800 women had been wounded in the two wars and more than 130 had died.



In the military, serving in combat positions like the infantry remains crucial to career advancement. Women have long said that by not recognizing their real service, the military has unfairly held them back.


Maj. Mary Jennings Hegar, an Air National Guard helicopter pilot, was shot down, returned fire and was wounded while on the ground in Afghanistan, but could not seek combat leadership positions because the Defense Department did not officially acknowledge her experience as combat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Could we women pick up a gun and defend our Nation, house, and children if we had to? ... He!! yeah :elmergun ... Would it be a career path many of us women seek - doubtful. :girlsaysno

I have to throw down the BS card on the claim women don't get leadership roles in the Army. I've had female company commanders, battalion commanders, and brigade commanders. I even had a female general as a commander. I served both in the Military Police Corps and Military Intelligence Corps. Neither one of those career fields made combat experience a requirement for leadership or command positions. Any woman who says she was passed over for promotion because she didn't have "combat experience" is lying through her friggin' teeth.

Put your BS card away before you poke your eye out. It says she couldn't seek COMBAT leadership positions, not non-combat leadership positions, there is a difference. And, since women were not "allowed" in combat roles, it would be easy for them to say she lacked the experience, even when it was blatantly out there that she did because they probably had her assigned to a non-combat slot.
 
I'm a little late to the game, but here is my 2 cents anyway.

I wouldn't have the desire to be over there, but I understand some would. Some of the female Marines I knew when we lived on Camp Pendleton would love to be there. The women that I knew there were a different breed of women, so to speak. They were a lot tougher and a lot stronger. I believe that there are women out there that can handle it and don't see why they shouldn't get the chance. I agree that they should have to meet the same requirements as the men though.
 
LisaC said:
Foxmeister said:
Far West said:
I think we have biological differences – it has nothing to do with Nature/ Nurture. The Universities of the 1980’s crammed that crap down my generation’s throats. Once we had kids and put them all together at a birthday bash you could immediately see the difference in boys and girls.

I think for some women, serving in the military might be their best fit… their gift… I do wonder if many are not a little heavier with testosterone than other women are?

Lifting the Combat Ban for women will allow the women who serve now, to receive the proper training for the types of combat situations they already 'unofficially' find themselves a part of.

Remember, more than 280,000 women deployed during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. As of last year, more than 800 women had been wounded in the two wars and more than 130 had died.



In the military, serving in combat positions like the infantry remains crucial to career advancement. Women have long said that by not recognizing their real service, the military has unfairly held them back.


Maj. Mary Jennings Hegar, an Air National Guard helicopter pilot, was shot down, returned fire and was wounded while on the ground in Afghanistan, but could not seek combat leadership positions because the Defense Department did not officially acknowledge her experience as combat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Could we women pick up a gun and defend our Nation, house, and children if we had to? ... He!! yeah :elmergun ... Would it be a career path many of us women seek - doubtful. :girlsaysno

I have to throw down the BS card on the claim women don't get leadership roles in the Army. I've had female company commanders, battalion commanders, and brigade commanders. I even had a female general as a commander. I served both in the Military Police Corps and Military Intelligence Corps. Neither one of those career fields made combat experience a requirement for leadership or command positions. Any woman who says she was passed over for promotion because she didn't have "combat experience" is lying through her friggin' teeth.

Put your BS card away before you poke your eye out. It says she couldn't seek COMBAT leadership positions, not non-combat leadership positions, there is a difference. And, since women were not "allowed" in combat roles, it would be easy for them to say she lacked the experience, even when it was blatantly out there that she did because they probably had her assigned to a non-combat slot.
The military had every right to refuse women to command combat units because women weren't allowed to be in combat arms military occupational skills. Would it make sense to take a woman officer, say a captain who is in Military Intelligence to command an Infantry company? Hell no for the same reason you wouldn't take a male Military Intelligence captain and put him in command of an Infantry company. Neither are trained Infantry officers.
 
There's a lot of debate regarding allowing women to serve as combat soldiers in combat units. I found the following supposedly written by a female former Marine who brings up some really good arguments why they shouldn't be allowed to. I agree with each and every one of her points, which I have placed in bold and italicized.


Some advice on women in combat from a female veteran
posted at 5:01 pm on January 27, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

Yesterday’s column on women in combat elicited a number of passionate responses from both sides. Some of them came from proponents of the move, frequently citing alternate motives on my part. These ranged from “trying to keep women pregnant in the kitchen” and “Republicans want to lock women in the 1950s” to whichever variant of the GOP’s “war on women” you’d care to name. Many others lent a more sympathetic ear. One in particular, though, caught my attention. It was from one of America’s female veterans who served in Iraq, delivered with a first hand, been there, done that background. The Marine in question – who for purposes of publication will go by the pseudonym of “Sentry” – had previously submitted this history and opinion as a comment at National Review, but her story was compelling enough that I checked into her background, contacted her and decided to republish it here in its entirety. I offer the following as a third party testimony to stand your scrutiny on its own merits.

I’m a female veteran. I deployed to Anbar Province, Iraq. When I was active duty, I was 5’6, 130 pounds, and scored nearly perfect on my PFTs. I naturally have a lot more upper body strength than the average woman: not only can I do pull-ups, I can meet the male standard. I would love to have been in the infantry. And I still think it will be an unmitigated disaster to incorporate women into combat roles. I am not interested in risking men’s lives so I can live my selfish dream.

We’re not just talking about watering down the standards to include the politically correct number of women into the unit. This isn’t an issue of “if a woman can meet the male standard, she should be able to go into combat.” The number of women that can meet the male standard will be miniscule–I’d have a decent shot according to my PFTs, but dragging a 190-pound man in full gear for 100 yards would DESTROY me–and that miniscule number that can physically make the grade AND has the desire to go into combat will be facing an impossible situation that will ruin the combat effectiveness of the unit. First, the close quarters of combat units make for a complete lack of privacy and EVERYTHING is exposed, to include intimate details of bodily functions. Second, until we succeed in completely reprogramming every man in the military to treat women just like men, those men are going to protect a woman at the expense of the mission. Third, women have physical limitations that no amount of training or conditioning can overcome. Fourth, until the media in this country is ready to treat a captured/raped/tortured/mutilated female soldier just like a man, women will be targeted by the enemy without fail and without mercy.

I saw the male combat units when I was in Iraq. They go outside the wire for days at a time. They eat, sleep, urinate and defecate in front of each other and often while on the move. There’s no potty break on the side of the road outside the wire. They urinate into bottles and defecate into MRE bags. I would like to hear a suggestion as to how a woman is going to urinate successfully into a bottle while cramped into a humvee wearing full body armor. And she gets to accomplish this feat with the male members of her combat unit twenty inches away. Volunteers to do that job? Do the men really want to see it? Should they be forced to?

Everyone wants to point to the IDF as a model for gender integration in the military. No, the IDF does not put women on the front lines. They ran into the same wall the US is about to smack into: very few women can meet the standards required to serve there. The few integrated units in the IDF suffered three times the casualties of the all-male units because the Israeli men, just like almost every other group of men on the planet, try to protect the women even at the expense of the mission. Political correctness doesn’t trump thousands of years of evolution and societal norms. Do we really WANT to deprogram that instinct from men?

Regarding physical limitations, not only will a tiny fraction of women be able to meet the male standard, the simple fact is that women tend to be shorter than men. I ran into situations when I was deployed where I simply could not reach something. I wasn’t tall enough. I had to ask a man to get it for me. I can’t train myself to be taller. Yes, there are small men…but not so nearly so many as small women. More, a military PFT doesn’t measure the ability to jump. Men, with more muscular legs and bones that carry more muscle mass than any woman can condition herself to carry, can jump higher and farther than women. That’s why we have a men’s standing jump and long jump event in the Olympics separate from women. When you’re going over a wall in Baghdad that’s ten feet high, you have to be able to be able to reach the top of it in full gear and haul yourself over. That’s not strength per se, that’s just height and the muscular explosive power to jump and reach the top. Having to get a boost from one of the men so you can get up and over could get that man killed.

Without pharmaceutical help, women just do not carry the muscle mass men do. That muscle mass is also a shock absorber. Whether it’s the concussion of a grenade going off, an IED, or just a punch in the face, a woman is more likely to go down because she can’t absorb the concussion as well as a man can. And I don’t care how the PC forces try to slice it, in hand-to-hand combat the average man is going to destroy the average woman because the average woman is smaller, period. Muscle equals force in any kind of strike you care to perform. That’s why we don’t let female boxers face male boxers.

Lastly, this country and our military are NOT prepared to see what the enemy will do to female POWs. The Taliban, AQ, insurgents, jihadis, whatever you want to call them, they don’t abide by the Geneva Conventions and treat women worse than livestock. Google Thomas Tucker and Kristian Menchaca if you want to see what they do to our men (and don’t google it unless you have a strong stomach) and then imagine a woman in their hands. How is our 24/7 news cycle going to cover a captured, raped, mutilated woman? After the first one, how are the men in the military going to treat their female comrades? ONE Thomasina Tucker is going to mean the men in the military will move heaven and earth to protect women, never mind what it does to the mission. I present you with Exhibit A: Jessica Lynch. Male lives will be lost trying to protect their female comrades. And the people of the US are NOT, based on the Jessica Lynch episode, prepared to treat a female POW the same way they do a man.

I say again, I would have loved to be in the infantry. I think I could have done it physically, I could’ve met almost all the male standards (jumping aside), and I think I’m mentally tough enough to handle whatever came. But I would never do that to the men. I would never sacrifice the mission for my own desires. And I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if someone died because of me.

- Sentry
 
LisaC said:
gog8tors said:
LisaC said:
ShoeDiva said:
Whoa....way too much to read!

No need - he's still wrong.
How so?

You should read the whole thread for all of the specifics, but mostly because of his blanket statement that women can't do it
Well I have read this whole thing.

1. If women want to do this, then they need to train, sleep, eat, and everything just like the men folk. No doing runs in tennis shoes. No separate quarters during basic, No difference period.

2. If you have a kid approach you will you be able to kill that child to save your unit?

3. Rape is a very real possibility, are we ready as a society to blow it off?

4. So do we now teach our boys that it's OK to treat all girls like one of the guys?

This reminds me of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
 
gog8tors said:
LisaC said:
gog8tors said:
LisaC said:
ShoeDiva said:
Whoa....way too much to read!

No need - he's still wrong.
How so?

You should read the whole thread for all of the specifics, but mostly because of his blanket statement that women can't do it
Well I have read this whole thing.

1. If women want to do this, then they need to train, sleep, eat, and everything just like the men folk. No doing runs in tennis shoes. No separate quarters during basic, No difference period.

2. If you have a kid approach you will you be able to kill that child to save your unit?

3. Rape is a very real possibility, are we ready as a society to blow it off?

4. So do we now teach our boys that it's OK to treat all girls like one of the guys?

This reminds me of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

:love :love :love
 
You should read the whole thread for all of the specifics, but mostly because of his blanket statement that women can't do it


Go back and read again what I said.


Here are some quotes from what you said:

"Having spent 25 years in the Army and deployed to war several times, I feel I can speak with authority on women's roles in the military. I don't believe women should be allowed to serve in combat arms military occupational specialties i.e. Infantry."
"It would be a waste of valuable money"
"The risks far outweigh any real assessable benefit."
"Being an Infantry soldier or a Special Forces member takes a lot of physical strength and endurance women are not built for."
"I'm telling you through 25 years of experience in the Army that women are not built for the Infantry nor Special Forces."

You are clearly against even giving a woman the chance to try because you don't believe they can do it. I'm telling you that you are wrong - there are women out there that can do it and they deserve the same opportunities as their male counterparts.

And, I personally think you are only :deadhorse cuz you want to hear me tell you that you're wrong over and over and over .... Admit it, you like me, don't you? :laugh
 
LisaC said:
And, I personally think you are only :deadhorse cuz you want to hear me tell you that you're wrong over and over and over .... Admit it, you like me, don't you? :laugh

Has this become and SnM thread? I don't think I should come in here anymore. Not without a safe word, anyway. Stradial ... can I borrow yours?
 
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