Toddler Injured In Drug Raid...

[honeybunny]

Child in critical condition after stun grenade thrown into crib:


http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/toddler-critically-injured-by-flash-bang-during-po/nf9XM/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2643344/Horror-SWAT-team-throw-stun-grenade-toddlers-CRIB-drugs-raid-leaving-coma-severe-burns.html



ray

 

[lotstodo]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

 

[mei lan]

I could not agree more, LTD.

 

[stradial]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

I do not have an issue with no-knock warrants in theory.
BUT, they should only be used in cases where there is a clear and present danger to officers, not where there is a "we think and maybe" danger.

 

[mei lan]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

I do not have an issue with no-knock warrants in theory.
BUT, they should only be used in cases where there is a clear and present danger to officers, not where there is a "we think and maybe" danger.

Like when you bust in on a 92yo woman who is home alone sleeping and who has a gun in her lap?

 

[stradial]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

I do not have an issue with no-knock warrants in theory.
BUT, they should only be used in cases where there is a clear and present danger to officers, not where there is a "we think and maybe" danger.

Like when you bust in on a 92yo woman who is home alone sleeping and who has a gun in her lap?

Have seen those old ladies when they are armed with just a broom?
I'm not sure Chuck Norris could take them.

 

[lotstodo]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

I do not have an issue with no-knock warrants in theory.
BUT, they should only be used in cases where there is a clear and present danger to officers, not where there is a "we think and maybe" danger.

There is no doubt that this guy was a bad man. He had been arrested before. He had weapons before. But judges and cops need to weigh the risks of these types of operations to both themselves and others. I read a while back that 21 police officers have been shot by friendly fire while executing a no-knock warrant. Who knows how many innocent family members have been shot. These are dangerous tactics, and somebody has to decide if the risk to life is worth a low level meth bust. Otherwise set up on the guy and try to make a safe arrest without all the military firepower. Brute force is no substitute for good police work.

 

[mei lan]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

I do not have an issue with no-knock warrants in theory.
BUT, they should only be used in cases where there is a clear and present danger to officers, not where there is a "we think and maybe" danger.

Like when you bust in on a 92yo woman who is home alone sleeping and who has a gun in her lap?

Have seen those old ladies when they are armed with just a broom?
I'm not sure Chuck Norris could take them.

'Cept for when the SWAT guys shoot them dead.

 

[Winchester]

I do not believe anything I read anymore in the media when it comes from police involved incidents, they are always twisted against the police. I have seen it first hand many times after being on-scene and then reading about it in the paper or watching it on TV and left wondering if I was even there.

Don't trust the media of any type to present a true and accurate story anymore. How many times have we seen front page stories like this only to be recanted later on the back page?

 

[lotstodo]

I do not believe anything I read anymore in the media when it comes from police involved incidents, they are always twisted against the police. I have seen it first hand many times after being on-scene and then reading about it in the paper or watching it on TV and left wondering if I was even there.

Don't trust the media of any type to present a true and accurate story anymore. How many times have we seen front page stories like this only to be recanted later on the back page?

I heard most of it from the mouth of the Chief of Police on WSB. He said point blank in clear English that they would change their tactics after this, and if they had it to do over again they would not have raided the house at 3AM knowing what they know now. It's their job to know what they know now before they go in. The guys are devastated I'm sure, but at some point rational people have to look beyond the value of the immediate bust, and no I don't want police officers shot either, that's a strawman. I don't want anyone hurt, and obviously this was totally unnecessary as they busted the guy a few hours later without incident.

 

[mei lan]

I do not believe anything I read anymore in the media when it comes from police involved incidents, they are always twisted against the police. I have seen it first hand many times after being on-scene and then reading about it in the paper or watching it on TV and left wondering if I was even there.

Don't trust the media of any type to present a true and accurate story anymore. How many times have we seen front page stories like this only to be recanted later on the back page?

I heard most of it from the mouth of the Chief of Police on WSB. He said point blank in clear English that they would change their tactics after this, and if they had it to do over again they would not have raided the house at 3AM knowing what they know now. It's their job to know what they know now before they go in. The guys are devastated I'm sure, but at some point rational people have to look beyond the value of the immediate bust, and no I don't want police officers shot either, that's a strawman. I don't want anyone hurt, and obviously this was totally unnecessary as they busted the guy a few hours later without incident.

Kinda like the FBI and Waco, etc....could have arrested him without incident in town, but no. Which brings to mind a point I just thought of - I hear local PDs get a lot of federal money for SWAT equipment and stuff...could that play a part in continuing raids? IDK...just thinkin' aloud.

 

[lotstodo]

I do not believe anything I read anymore in the media when it comes from police involved incidents, they are always twisted against the police. I have seen it first hand many times after being on-scene and then reading about it in the paper or watching it on TV and left wondering if I was even there.

Don't trust the media of any type to present a true and accurate story anymore. How many times have we seen front page stories like this only to be recanted later on the back page?

I heard most of it from the mouth of the Chief of Police on WSB. He said point blank in clear English that they would change their tactics after this, and if they had it to do over again they would not have raided the house at 3AM knowing what they know now. It's their job to know what they know now before they go in. The guys are devastated I'm sure, but at some point rational people have to look beyond the value of the immediate bust, and no I don't want police officers shot either, that's a strawman. I don't want anyone hurt, and obviously this was totally unnecessary as they busted the guy a few hours later without incident.

Kinda like the FBI and Waco, etc....could have arrested him without incident in town, but no. Which brings to mind a point I just thought of - I hear local PDs get a lot of federal money for SWAT equipment and stuff...could that play a part in continuing raids? IDK...just thinkin' aloud.

Well if you have an armored personnel carrier you are going to think up ways to use it. Just look at Boston. That was a complete cluster.... looking for one guy supposedly armed with a pistol. Best part? They didn't find him, a citizen did after they restored suspended civil rights. I hope they learned from that and I hope a lot of departments look at the Habersham incident and remember it when they ask for that next warrant and approach the next door. That's the only good that might come from it.

 

[stradial]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

I do not have an issue with no-knock warrants in theory.
BUT, they should only be used in cases where there is a clear and present danger to officers, not where there is a "we think and maybe" danger.

There is no doubt that this guy was a bad man. He had been arrested before. He had weapons before. But judges and cops need to weigh the risks of these types of operations to both themselves and others. I read a while back that 21 police officers have been shot by friendly fire while executing a no-knock warrant. Who knows how many innocent family members have been shot. These are dangerous tactics, and somebody has to decide if the risk to life is worth a low level meth bust. Otherwise set up on the guy and try to make a safe arrest without all the military firepower. Brute force is no substitute for good police work.

I agree and understand your point.
There is a place for the no-knock, it should not be the first choice in every situation.

 

[honeybunny]

Thank you... that is my precisely my problem with the whole thing.
A few days surveillance would have likely prevented this tragedy...

 

[lotstodo]

Just when you thought that perhaps these cops would at least learn from their mistakes....It was brought up this afternoon that these are the same cops who shot an innocent pastor in 2009.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/05/30/drug-task-force-that-burned-a-toddler-this-week-also-killed-an-innocent-pastor-in-2009/

 

[stradial]

These stories remind me of what happened back in 1934 when the Bureau of Investigation (soon to be renamed the Federal Bureau of Investigation) was chasing Dillinger.
One of the most famous or infamous incidents happened at the Little Bohemia Lodge in Manitowish Waters, Wisconsin.

On April 20, 1934, John Dillinger, Lester (Baby Face Nelson) Gillis, Homer Van Meter, Tommy Carroll, and John "Red" Hamilton, along with their wives and girlfriends (except for Dillinger, he was alone) and another couple went to the lodge for a weekend getaway.
The owner of the lodge and his wife decided to call the Feds and report Dillinger.

In the early morning hours of April 23, the Feds were attempting to surround the lodge when several things happened at once.

The two dogs that lived at the lodge started barking loudly. (they had been barking all weekend)
Two of the lodge's employees stepped out the kitchen door for some air and a smoke.
Three CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) workers who had been at the lodge for dinner and lots of drinks, left out the front door and got in a car.

Hearing the dogs barking and seeing 5 men leave the lodge at the same time, the Feds decided that it was the gang escaping.
The 3 CCC workers started the car and turning the radio up loud, started to drive off.
The Feds yelled for them to stop, but due to the radio, the CCC workers couldn't hear the shouts to stop.
The Feds opened up on the car, wounding one worker and killing another.
Meanwhile, the Dillinger gang escaped out the back and made their way back to Chicago.
(except for Nelson, who before escaping, killed one Federal agent and wounded a local deputy and another federal agent)

This was not the first time the Feds thought they had Dillinger, only to have him escape and some innocent civilians get hurt.
But it was this incident at the Little Bohemia Lodge prompted the great Will Rogers to make this observation.

Will Rogers:
"Well, they had Dillinger surrounded and was all ready to shoot him when he came out, but another bunch of folks came out ahead, so they just shot them instead. Dillinger is going to accidentally get with some innocent bystanders some time, then he will get shot."


BTW, Before he was killed, Nelson managed to kill two more FBI agents, he holds the dubious record of most FBI agents killed.

 

[Mrs. Jack Russell]

First of all I hate it that this child got hurt, but I do have an opinion on this. The mother (parents) put this child in harms way by living with drug dealers.

I also do not trust any reports I hear on the news as being fact, but on Channel 2 a reporter was reporting about this and Jovetta asked her a question. She said an earlier report was that the mother said something about shady people coming to the house and she would make sure her kids were not around so that they would not witness what was going on. If this is true, the mother knew something illegal was going on in that home and she still allowed her kids to live there. Also this could be why the informant never saw any kids in the house. As far as the van they said was parked outside with car seats, I can't believe the police didn't see that, but who knows where that van was parked.

Anyway my opinion is that this is a sad situation. I hope that the child makes a full recovery and I hope the parents find a better place to live.

 

[honeybunny]

The real crime here is obtaining a no-knock warrant strictly on the basis of an informant's say so. This crap has to stop.

Georgia needs clear guidelines of when a no-knock warrant is justified. It used to be used only in extreme circumstances when it was believed that lives were in danger, the suspect had a history of violence against police, or there was a significant chance that a known felon would successfully destroy evidence in a serious crime. At some point it just became standard procedure in drug investigations to bust down a door with guns drawn like Rambo and shoot whatever didn't hit the floor in the first few seconds. Hell, there might be marijuana in there. Instead, there was a homeless family that this suspectl was helping out by letting them stay.

A guy was accused of selling a small amount of meth to an informant earlier in the day. Nobody tried to corroborate the story. Nobody sat on the house to either check for other residents or to make sure the suspect was even in the house. Nobody made an attempt to first engage the suspect as he either tried to enter of leave the house. The net result is a child critically injured and at best scared for life. The guy wasn't even there. They later arrested him the way they should have in the first place. I'm totally disgusted. This is not "just one of those unfortunate circumstances". This was entirely predictable.

I do not have an issue with no-knock warrants in theory.
BUT, they should only be used in cases where there is a clear and present danger to officers, not where there is a "we think and maybe" danger.

There is no doubt that this guy was a bad man. He had been arrested before. He had weapons before. But judges and cops need to weigh the risks of these types of operations to both themselves and others. I read a while back that 21 police officers have been shot by friendly fire while executing a no-knock warrant. Who knows how many innocent family members have been shot. These are dangerous tactics, and somebody has to decide if the risk to life is worth a low level meth bust. Otherwise set up on the guy and try to make a safe arrest without all the military firepower. Brute force is no substitute for good police work.

Apparently this was not an isolated incident :


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/05/30/georgia-toddler-critically-injured-by-polices-flash-grenade/

 

[lotstodo]

First of all I hate it that this child got hurt, but I do have an opinion on this. The mother (parents) put this child in harms way by living with drug dealers.

I also do not trust any reports I hear on the news as being fact, but on Channel 2 a reporter was reporting about this and Jovetta asked her a question. She said an earlier report was that the mother said something about shady people coming to the house and she would make sure her kids were not around so that they would not witness what was going on. If this is true, the mother knew something illegal was going on in that home and she still allowed her kids to live there. Also this could be why the informant never saw any kids in the house. As far as the van they said was parked outside with car seats, I can't believe the police didn't see that, but who knows where that van was parked.

Anyway my opinion is that this is a sad situation. I hope that the child makes a full recovery and I hope the parents find a better place to live.

Initial reports are that the family had just moved from Wisconsin and was homeless. They were staying there for a few weeks while they tried to get back on their feet. Living with a drug dealer who will provide free room and board for you and your toddler or living in your van on the streets is not a choice I would want to make.

 

[Boss 302]

In situations like this there are a lot more things the police can do other than conduct a no knock warrant at 3 am. First thing, you don't necessarily know how many people live in the house. Second, you don't even know if the guy you want is going to be there when you go in. Third, you know you need to do a little intelligence work to get more information so you can get the guy on your first attempt. You have an informant who knows him because of the drug deal.

Use the informant for as much information as possible. Do some intelligence work to verify the information. Do a little surveillance if you have to. If you plan to take him at the house, you definitely want to know how many people live there, as well as their ages and gender. Make several plans based upon the intelligence you gather. These should also be plans to take him when he's not at the house, especially if there are children living there. If there's a place you learn he goes to every day or certain days of the week, it's best to plan how to take him on his way there or when he arrives. You have to look at every conceivable thing that could go wrong while you plan so you can identify the risk and ways to mitigate the risks.

It's not rocket science. There's this belief amongst law enforcement agencies that it's always best to take the bad guy down in the very early morning hours because he may be asleep. I've seen too many times on the news where these operations failed miserably and some innocent person was seriously hurt or killed.