This *bleep* has officially gone too far

Madea said:
I took French in high school. It seemed so much "classier" than Spanish. :)) Now all I remember is how to ask someone to go to the beach (which btw is the first phrase we learned). As an adult, France doesn't hold near the attraction.
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My daughter wanted to take Latin, but it wasn't offered. Her reason was that it is a base language and it would make it easier for her to take other languages.
 
unionmom said:
The fortune cookie thing is a token of what is happening to our society. Period. It was not about the marketing it was not about the cookie it was not about the fortune. (Though I will say with 100% certainty that this particular restaurant did not make a conscious business decision to switch to bilingual cookies.)

So again, you missed the bigger picture. I take partial responsibility for that though since you don't know me and I didn't spell it out. ;)
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Ok, so what is your version of the "big picture"?
 
meandmyguys said:
unionmom said:
The fortune cookie thing is a token of what is happening to our society. Period. It was not about the marketing it was not about the cookie it was not about the fortune. (Though I will say with 100% certainty that this particular restaurant did not make a conscious business decision to switch to bilingual cookies.)

So again, you missed the bigger picture. I take partial responsibility for that though since you don't know me and I didn't spell it out. ;)
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Ok, so what is your version of the "big picture"?
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Sorry, I forgot about this thread. :-[

Immigrants come to this country because of what it is, what it has to offer, what it symbolizes. Every other group of immigrants comes here and, for the most part, keeps their culture and language intact in their homes and their immediate communities yet they acclimate themselves to this country in order to live here. That is not what we see with much of the hispanic population of immigrants. They come here for what this country has to offer yet they seem to want us to accommodate them. The spanish language on a product that is from yet another culture altogether was an exaggerated example of this problem. It is one of the reasons that there is such a push back against them in this country. They are absolutely capable of learning the english language, they simply choose not to. It's like a giant FU to everyone here and much of the U.S. population is getting pretty tired of it.

The thread really started as rather tongue in cheek but the truth underneath it all is what I just laid out above.
 
See, I just don't see it this way. Now, I am talking LEGAL immigrants, illegal is a whole other issue in itself. But I see LEGAL immigrants attempting to learn English, with very little understanding from people on just how long that takes. I have witnessed horrible treatment of individuals who were working two jobs and taking night classes to learn English - because people assumed if they didn't speak English YET, they must not be trying. Most non-english speakers I have met apologize as they are trying to communicate, they are embarassed they can't speak well enough. I don't see any hispanic groups demanding Spanish translations on things, perhaps you have seen things I haven't - can you point me in the right direction? I see it happening the other way around PLENTY of times - business' providing Spanish options to draw in native Spanish speaker's business. My husband was in education for years there. The English classes that were offered for free or at a reduced cost that he was given to point to as resources were always over packed and not taking new students. A lot of these people don't have the money to hire a private tutor. I can't fault someone for that.
 
I don't have any more hard cold facts to back up my position than you. My position comes from personal experience just as yours does. From personal dealings with families that have stated point blank that they refuse to learn, from dealing with the children from families who have said that their parents refuse to try, from seeing the many ridiculous bend over backwards efforts (in my opinion) to accommodate people who have been here for 5, 10, or more years and still do not have even the most basic grasp of the language here. I don't give a rat's butt if they are legal or not when it comes to this particular topic. Show me any other country in the world that would continue to coddle anyone that refuses to at least learn the most basic of basics within that kind of time frame? In the 10+ years that I've been here in Georgia I personally know of at least 3 people that have no more grasp of the English language today than they did when I first met them shortly after moving here. WTH? But let somebody do something that anyone perceives as an intrusion on their rights and watch the lawyers come out of the woodwork. Now of course this does not apply to every hispanic in this country. I also know some truly wonderful hispanics that have worked very hard to improve their lives and they are very positive additions to their community here in this country. They get a raw deal in the situation because of the large number of bad apples that are spoiling the public perception of their group as a whole. The legal/illegal thing doesn't help, that's for sure.


And by the way, thank you for the mature back and forth. I always appreciate a good exchange of views and ideas. When it degrades into name calling and attacks it loses any value to participates and bystanders. [insert thumbs up emoticon here]
 
I think any person who applies for a visa to work temporarily or come here permanently should be required to speak English before the visa is approved.
 
unionmom said:
I don't have any more hard cold facts to back up my position than you. My position comes from personal experience just as yours does. And by the way, thank you for the mature back and forth. I always appreciate a good exchange of views and ideas. When it degrades into name calling and attacks it loses any value to participates and bystanders. [insert thumbs up emoticon here]
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Well, I know we'll never come to an agreement and wouldn't expect to, like you I just enjoy an exchange of ideas and exploring opposing views on subjects - keeps my little mommy brain from turning to mush! LOL

I actually think that Fox's idea would be one way to go and could work IF that was the direction a counrty wanted to go in. To me, it depends on the enviroment and culture a country wants to cultivate. There are many countries that "coddle" immigrants when it comes to allowing them to keep their own culture and language. Where I live now, I am interested in learning the local language simply for the sake of learning, but I will never HAVE TO - they make it very easy not to. The majority of people here are NOT native, with most coming form different areas of South Asia, India, the Phillipines, Indonesia, and then Europe, Australia, Canada and the US. Each culture keeps it's identity and almost none learn the native language, HOWEVER, I am not saying this is what's best for the US. I am just saying that it works fine here for the type of economy they chose to build their country on. You see it a lot in other countries, too. Whoever they WANT to draw to their country for either work resources or tourism puroses, the easiest way to do so is to encourage them by making it easy to be there.

The US is almost the polar opposite. It's fine for you to move here, if you have something to contribute - but you had better learn to speak like us, dress like us, eat like us and like our music. Historically, that's relatively new for America. I'm not saying either approach is right or wrong, it's just different - and certainly the choice of the citizens/government.
 
Where are you now?

As for the aspects of the U.S., I take issue with what you said about look like us, like our music, etc. This country was built by immigrants from all over the world and there's a reason it is known as the melting pot. We all have a lot to learn from one another. We also have to have tolerance and understanding of one another. There absolutely is room for varying cultures and beliefs and tastes and preferences etc. The huge difference between the U.S. and so many other nations is that it is so isolated, relatively speaking, from other nations borders that it has not traditionally had to be as accommodating of other languages. This whole learn to speak English to get along here thing is most assuredly not new. That has been the case for hundreds of years. The sooner you learned, the better. It has just recently become such a political hot button because there is such a large number of hispanics in this country and such a seemingly large number of them either choosing not to learn the language or pretending not to know it when it suits them. (Pisses me off to no end when I hear people speaking English only to then hear them tell and authority figure "no habla" when the situation is not in their favor.)

Ok, I'm having a bad headache day and I've lost my train of thought. Guess I'll stop now.
 
I am in Abu Dhabi, UAE.

When this country was in it's building stages, immigrants formed groups in areas where they would live together in their own familiar subculture. Thus, Little Italy, Chinatown etc. They frequented their own businesses and rarely had to worry about being expected to speak English. Sure they eventually learned, but their "home neighborhood" gave them the advantage of learning gradually, as anyone normally would, as opposed to having to hit the ground running like some expect today. You don't think people are expected to assimilate today? Then you haven't heard the comments I hear about "this is America, we don't wear THAT here" (fill in hijab, sari, turban, whatever), try blasting some Indian music in your car and see what comments you get, and many people still consider a thick accent license to insult and belittle another even if they are speaking English. Modern Americans have a tendancy to shun that which is "different" from mainstream American Society. The educated often see it in a different light, but unfortunately too many do not.

I am sorry you are not feeling well. :( Hopefully by the time you read this, you will be feeling much better.
 
Right, their home community was fine but to do business with the county, state, or nation hey had to acclimate. They knew that right from the start. Once they left their immediate area, however many blocks that was, they knew that they had to know English in order to get around and to do business or work or what have you. I don't think anyone has an issue with peoples maintaining their culture in their community but when you go the the DMV or if you get pulled over by the police or when you go to the grocery store or when you have a parent teacher conference or any one of the 5 million other things that life today dictates that you leave your little bubble for, you must be prepared to do business in the language of the country in which you live.

As for the other ... there will always be groups and areas that lack tolerance. I will call them out as much as I call out the immigrants that won't learn English. (I actually did call somebody out one day in front of a whole bunch of people at a flea market one time but that's a whole other story.) I grew up in a much more multi-cultural area than some and I know that my life exposed me to more cultures than many people. (Grew up outside of DC, Dad worked for the World Bank. spent many nights at Embassy parties, had many similar gatherings at our home, etc.) I simply do not have any tolerance for that kind of silliness "This is America!" over what somebody is listening to on the radio? Really? Our clothes, our art, our music, etc. comes from a blend of influences from all over the world and those sorts of things are all a matter of taste and are subjective. I personally have no use whatsoever for bluegrass. Does that mean that if I'm ever in the city and I hear someone playing it on their radio I should yell "This is the city!"? Ludicrous.
 
I agree with you and applaud your attitude, unfortunately there aren't enough people who share it. I have heard what borders on cruelty from many people, in our own county, on the other message boards, even from "friends" about those who look different, dress different, sound different. It's part of the reason we are overseas for a few years. I love PC, and I always want my kids to consider it home. But I wanted to jar their concept of "normal". And maybe I won't ever hear a crass generalization thinly disguised as a "joke" come out of their mouths. **maybe** (little prayers)
 
Somebody's skin color or hair color or clothing choices or economic standing or favorite cartoon character or weight or astrological sign or any other such thing means absolutely nothing when it comes to the kind of person they are or where they do or do not belong. It can sometimes be difficult to remember that when you are constantly bombarded with stereotypes but then I remember that I am not the person that someone else portrays and I certainly don't want to be judged for someone else's actions so why would I do that to someone else?
 
(And yes I do get that I made generalizations in this thread that may come across as contradictory to my above post but I hope that I've made it clear that I don't come anywhere near having an issue with all hispanics, merely those that refuse to make the effort and/or abuse the accommodations offered to and made for them.)
 
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