Generation Gaps

LisaC said:
naturegirl said:
Perhaps they don't need it for their classes, maybe that's part of why it now takes 5 years to earn a 4 year degree. :dunno

I think learning cursive and correct spelling is very necessary for job applications and interviews. I wouldn't be happy if my kids or grandkids couldn't read the US Constitution in it's original format.

If they aren't teaching cursive in school, they'd learn at home. My grandson is learning cursive in Paulding County Schools, he's in 5th grade and they started last year.

Should we stop teaching Math because we have calculators and computers??
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Just so you know, I have NEVER had to solve a calculus equation outside of a math class. NOR has dissecting a frog been an essential part of my adult life. :whistle
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Smarty pants...I am sure you have used concepts taught in both in the real world. Just because you are that good!
 
My son is in 7th. Limited, and I mean VERY limited attention was paid to cursive in elementary school. Not done now at all. My daughter has had even less attention to cursive than my son. If I write a note to a teacher in cursive, they both struggle to read it. And my son is a terrible speller! He may not need it for an online paper, but he sure could use it in his middle school essays. He worked on a paper last weekend, I asked him to re-write it because of misspelled words. He said it wasn't necessary. I let him turn it in, thinking he would suffer the consequences. There weren't any. :tapfoot2
 
Admittedly, I'm a bit biased since Algebra and Calculus have both been part of my teaching load at various points in my career. Also, I have atrocious handwriting, but very good spelling. But here are my thoughts on the direction this discussion has wandered:

In math, not every student needs advanced mathematics. I would even be willing to go so far as to argue that one's mathematics could stop before Algebra 2, depending on one's goals. For many students, a better understanding of topics like percentages and ratios would be more useful than topics like proofs of the quadratic equation. However, in our technological era, there are many thought-processes to be learned from more basic Algebra that would be useful. For example, the concept of variables is vital for understanding spreadsheets. Also, Algebra opens up a whole new way of thinking. Taught correctly, it challenges the student to think about the general principles behind mathematics and understand them in a much deeper way than possible without the abstract concepts that Algebra teaches.

I think spelling is vital. It is part of speaking English properly. As human beings, we need to communicate. One might as well say that Chinese is the same if the characters are formed wrongly. I'm open to spelling reform, but the idea that we depend on computers to tell us how to spell is ridiculous. I recall reading a paper not too long ago in which the student talked about how something was "ridged" rather than "rigid" and I had no clue what she actually meant. Spelling is vital to clear communication. I will agree that the way we teach spelling is ridiculous. Seriously, we memorize a list, barf it out on a spelling quiz, and that's it? Even many of the teachers who use this method admit that kids forget within a week how to spell the words. Oddly, this doesn't make them question their methods. Here's an idea: have students regularly use their new words. Make spelling part of vocabulary lessons and have students actually write!

As for handwriting: I type a lot. I have really awful handwriting. But, there is real power in handwriting. When we ask students to write things down, they internalize them. Not much time has to be spent in handwriting, but it's interesting to note that boys in particular find it easier to begin writing if they use cursive. They don't develop fine motor skills as quickly as girls, and this puts them at a disadvantage in language arts. If we use cursive, boys don't have as much of a disadvantage as if we do not.

Also: I'll just note that if I want to remember something, I write it down. Once I write it, it's in me. If you tell me to meet you at 3:00 I'll forget. I could even type it and I'll forget. But, I could write it on a random scrap of paper, and it's in me. I'll remember. As I've learned Chinese on my own, I do make flashcards for my vocabulary, and they are typed, but I learn the majority of my words by writing them down in a sloppy, disorganized notebook. If I write them once, most words stick.

What needs to change is how certain subjects are taught because the way we do it now is useless. I mentioned spelling. Another is English. Although English should include literature, I really question why it doesn't have a lot more nonfiction. Seriously, what do most people read in their professional lives? I remember taking some history courses in college and we read some nonfiction works (not textbooks) to learn the subject: a biography of Hitler, a memoir written by a soldier in the First World War, a book written by Hitler's architect (Albert Speers), and a variety of others. More importantly, why are we having students write fiction? Very few will actually become authors, but many will have to write nonfiction papers.

As for math: part of the reason people think Algebra is useless is that we have focussed too long on algorithms instead of understandings. Who cares if I can do long division or factor a polynomial if I have no clue why it works or what it's good for. I had a discussion today with some math teachers about the Pythagorean Theorem. One of the teachers had no clue what it was good for, though she knew how to use it. When I started drawing squares around the triangle at the center of this theorem I seriously rocked her world. She had never seen anything like it, and had never even thought to wonder why each term in the equation was squared.

Math education needs to emphasize alternate methods of solving problems. Why don't my (senior) physics students know how to use slope in any context other than the rote formula they learned? Slope is so universal and useful as a ratio, but even my brightest students don't realize it is a ratio. When my Chemistry kids do my density lab (where we graph mass and volume of objects) it blows their mind that the slope of the resulting line is the density of the material the objects were made of. They memorized the formula in 8th grade with the junior high science teacher and never asked where it came from, learned to find slope from their math teacher (which includes me), and never saw the larger picture until Chemistry.

Clearly, I am guilty of the same shortcomings as my colleagues, though at least I am willing to admit I need to change.
 
Actually, let me go a few steps further. This one has angered a few parents (and administrators).

I won't accept work that is riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors or is so sloppy that I struggle to read it. I tell students that any work we do reflects on us and our work ethic. We an't expect to turn in "crap" for the work we don't care about in the hopes that we will get to do the work we want to do.

I don't tell them this, but I have to do an excellent job teaching Biology even though I hate the subject and have no interest in it. My teaching in Biology reflects on the kind of job I will do in other subjects and other jobs. So, I do my best, and have actually learned a lot that has served me well as I teach other subjects. Always present your best face and do your best job.
 
Waski_the_Squirrel said:
Actually, let me go a few steps further. This one has angered a few parents (and administrators).

I won't accept work that is riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors or is so sloppy that I struggle to read it. I tell students that any work we do reflects on us and our work ethic. We an't expect to turn in "crap" for the work we don't care about in the hopes that we will get to do the work we want to do.

I don't tell them this, but I have to do an excellent job teaching Biology even though I hate the subject and have no interest in it. My teaching in Biology reflects on the kind of job I will do in other subjects and other jobs. So, I do my best, and have actually learned a lot that has served me well as I teach other subjects. Always present your best face and do your best job.
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:CLAP :CLAP :CLAP :CLAP

I agree 100% with what you have said here. Coming from and educator makes it very profound!! ND SAT scores consistently rate high as compared to the national average so I'd say you're doing the right things over there Waski!!

My biggest problem today is the attitude of some Georgia teachers. I understand they often deal with parents that have poor skills and little education. I've seen them type on message boards, they have the degree and know what's best for the child so parents should just stay out of it. They need to realize not all parents are uneducated and have poor skills, some of us actually understand the learning process and know what works and what doesn't for our kids to learn. All three of my kids had different methods of understanding, my youngest learns quickly, the other two had to work a little harder.

The reflection of our SAT scores and lack of college readiness tells me some teachers aren't doing their best, they're doing a job, putting in their time. Don't misunderstand me, there are some great teachers but the attitude of most teachers I've dealt with shows up in those test scores.

I just couldn't imagine sending my child on to college without the ability to write legibly and spell correctly. Math uses part of the brain literature and history don't. It's important they understand all of it, not just learn to test.

Like you if I write it down I have a much better chance of remembering something than if I try to mentally store it or even type it. There's something about that eye hand coordination that registers it.

At any rate there are basic skills that need to be learned no matter how far in the future we look. Teaching for the future is a tough job, especially since we have no clue what the future holds. I think your speaker was on to something. :)

Thanks Waski!! Your students are very fortunate to have you as an instructor!!
 
Madea said:
My son is in 7th. Limited, and I mean VERY limited attention was paid to cursive in elementary school. Not done now at all. My daughter has had even less attention to cursive than my son. If I write a note to a teacher in cursive, they both struggle to read it. And my son is a terrible speller! He may not need it for an online paper, but he sure could use it in his middle school essays. He worked on a paper last weekend, I asked him to re-write it because of misspelled words. He said it wasn't necessary. I let him turn it in, thinking he would suffer the consequences. There weren't any. :tapfoot2
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Have you seen how badly the boys' spell? I've tried to work with them but they say it doesn't matter if they get it right. :dunno
 
deewee said:
Madea said:
My son is in 7th. Limited, and I mean VERY limited attention was paid to cursive in elementary school. Not done now at all. My daughter has had even less attention to cursive than my son. If I write a note to a teacher in cursive, they both struggle to read it. And my son is a terrible speller! He may not need it for an online paper, but he sure could use it in his middle school essays. He worked on a paper last weekend, I asked him to re-write it because of misspelled words. He said it wasn't necessary. I let him turn it in, thinking he would suffer the consequences. There weren't any. :tapfoot2
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Have you seen how badly the boys' spell? I've tried to work with them but they say it doesn't matter if they get it right. :dunno
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I think this "boys" learning stuff needs a thread of it's own. We girls don't seem to understand how they learn, let's ask some of the guys!!
 
Madea said:
My son is in 7th. Limited, and I mean VERY limited attention was paid to cursive in elementary school. Not done now at all. My daughter has had even less attention to cursive than my son. If I write a note to a teacher in cursive, they both struggle to read it. And my son is a terrible speller! He may not need it for an online paper, but he sure could use it in his middle school essays. He worked on a paper last weekend, I asked him to re-write it because of misspelled words. He said it wasn't necessary. I let him turn it in, thinking he would suffer the consequences. There weren't any. :tapfoot2
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When mine was at AMS he only turned in typed papers there. He had to show a handwritten, edited essay, but it had to be typed in MLA format and all turned in. Are they turning in handwritten essay's at DMS? Goodness, my son can write, but with his handwriting he would be 18 and still at AMS because no one would be able to figure out the handwriting! :)) Now, he did get dinged on spelling with those because he did have spell check.

(Kids that told teachers that they did not have access to a computer would give them time to go to the lab)
 
Waski_the_Squirrel said:
...In math, not every student needs advanced mathematics. I would even be willing to go so far as to argue that one's mathematics could stop before Algebra 2, depending on one's goals. For many students, a better understanding of topics like percentages and ratios would be more useful than topics like proofs of the quadratic equation. However, in our technological era, there are many thought-processes to be learned from more basic Algebra that would be useful. For example, the concept of variables is vital for understanding spreadsheets. Also, Algebra opens up a whole new way of thinking. Taught correctly, it challenges the student to think about the general principles behind mathematics and understand them in a much deeper way than possible without the abstract concepts that Algebra teaches.

I think spelling is vital. It is part of speaking English properly. As human beings, we need to communicate. One might as well say that Chinese is the same if the characters are formed wrongly. I'm open to spelling reform, but the idea that we depend on computers to tell us how to spell is ridiculous. I recall reading a paper not too long ago in which the student talked about how something was "ridged" rather than "rigid" and I had no clue what she actually meant. Spelling is vital to clear communication. I will agree that the way we teach spelling is ridiculous. Seriously, we memorize a list, barf it out on a spelling quiz, and that's it? Even many of the teachers who use this method admit that kids forget within a week how to spell the words. Oddly, this doesn't make them question their methods. Here's an idea: have students regularly use their new words. Make spelling part of vocabulary lessons and have students actually write!

As for handwriting: I type a lot. I have really awful handwriting. But, there is real power in handwriting. When we ask students to write things down, they internalize them. Not much time has to be spent in handwriting, but it's interesting to note that boys in particular find it easier to begin writing if they use cursive. They don't develop fine motor skills as quickly as girls, and this puts them at a disadvantage in language arts. If we use cursive, boys don't have as much of a disadvantage as if we do not.

Also: I'll just note that if I want to remember something, I write it down. Once I write it, it's in me. If you tell me to meet you at 3:00 I'll forget. I could even type it and I'll forget. But, I could write it on a random scrap of paper, and it's in me. I'll remember. As I've learned Chinese on my own, I do make flashcards for my vocabulary, and they are typed, but I learn the majority of my words by writing them down in a sloppy, disorganized notebook. If I write them once, most words stick.

What needs to change is how certain subjects are taught because the way we do it now is useless. I mentioned spelling. Another is English. Although English should include literature, I really question why it doesn't have a lot more nonfiction. Seriously, what do most people read in their professional lives? I remember taking some history courses in college and we read some nonfiction works (not textbooks) to learn the subject: a biography of Hitler, a memoir written by a soldier in the First World War, a book written by Hitler's architect (Albert Speers), and a variety of others. More importantly, why are we having students write fiction? Very few will actually become authors, but many will have to write nonfiction papers.

As for math: part of the reason people think Algebra is useless is that we have focussed too long on algorithms instead of understandings. Who cares if I can do long division or factor a polynomial if I have no clue why it works or what it's good for. I had a discussion today with some math teachers about the Pythagorean Theorem. One of the teachers had no clue what it was good for, though she knew how to use it. When I started drawing squares around the triangle at the center of this theorem I seriously rocked her world. She had never seen anything like it, and had never even thought to wonder why each term in the equation was squared.

Math education needs to emphasize alternate methods of solving problems....
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Waski_the_Squirrel said:
Actually, let me go a few steps further. This one has angered a few parents (and administrators).

I won't accept work that is riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors or is so sloppy that I struggle to read it. I tell students that any work we do reflects on us and our work ethic. We an't expect to turn in "crap" for the work we don't care about in the hopes that we will get to do the work we want to do.

I don't tell them this, but I have to do an excellent job teaching Biology even though I hate the subject and have no interest in it. My teaching in Biology reflects on the kind of job I will do in other subjects and other jobs. So, I do my best, and have actually learned a lot that has served me well as I teach other subjects. Always present your best face and do your best job.
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:cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1 :cheer1
 
When I went to high school, we were still having spelling/vocabulary tests in our 10th grade English class. Every Monday, we were given a list of 15-20 words and for homework we had to look them up and write down their definitions to turn in on Tuesday. Also during that week, we would have a writing assignment where we had to use all the words correctly. On Friday, we would have a test. The teacher would say the word; we had to spell it correctly; write down the definition; and use it correctly in a sentence.

I hated Algebra. I had a very difficult time understanding it the way my teacher was teaching it. My father has always been a math whiz. He taught me a very simple way of working out the problems, which also made it easier to understand. He would also give lots of examples on Alegebra is used. The teacher would deduct points from my problems because I didn't show all the steps, which was lowering my grade. If a homework problem had 5 steps by her teaching method, but I did it in 3 by the way my father taught me; she would deduct 2 points.

She also gave me zero points on a test and accused me of cheating because I didn't show all the steps to the problems. She said I had to have been looking at the answers of the students sitting to my right and left. My father and I had a meeting after school with her a few days. My father was trying to explain to her the method in which he taught me how to solve the problems. She wasn't buying it and continued to say I had copied the answers from other students. She said I couldn't have come up with the correct answers because I had not shown all the steps. My father suggested she write a problem on the blackboard during our meeting and have me solve it. She put a problem up on the board and I stood their and did it in 3 steps. The first thing she said was, "He didn't show all the steps. He's missing two." My father then asked her, "Is his solution correct?" Reluctantly she said it was. My father then asked her who I copied it from while standing there at the board. She told him I still didn't show 2 steps. He asked her what was more important, showing all the steps and having the wrong solution or not showing all the steps and having the correct solution. She still insisted I had to show all the steps.

Obviously the way my father was taught Algebra in the late 40's worked very well, because when he taught that method to me, it was much easier to understand than the "new Math" my teacher was teaching. Why was it necessary to develop a new Math that made it harder to understand? My father was great at showing me how many different ways one would use Algebra in life. My teacher couldn't do that. Pretty much everyone in my class thought Algebra was a subject you would never use in life, therefor a waste of time to take.
 
You know, I hear the argument often (it's been around a long time) that students will never use most of what they learn in school. Maybe specifically, but....

I STILL consider myself a "student". I LOVE to learn new things. Many things I "learn" I may never practice regularly, but I can only better myself by soaking up all that I possibly can. I had an older friend (who happened to be an educator) tell me one time, "I can know everything about something or I can know something about everything." I've always applied that to my approach in my "studies" as I go through life.

:)
 
I'm Floored said:
You know, I hear the argument often (it's been around a long time) that students will never use most of what they learn in school. Maybe specifically, but....

I STILL consider myself a "student". I LOVE to learn new things. Many things I "learn" I may never practice regularly, but I can only better myself by soaking up all that I possibly can. I had an older friend (who happened to be an educator) tell me one time, "I can know everything about something or I can know something about everything." I've always applied that to my approach in my "studies" as I go through life.

:)
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I agree with that. I still want to learn things and that's why I read a lot.
 
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