The Pope - Round 2 - here we go again...

[J-man]

...this time, according to this article, there is no mistaking whether or not the Pope is addressing the Church or making a political statement. In this instance he is obviously speaking directly to the heads of U.N. governmental agencies and making a political statement during their meeting in Rome. It was not a speech to his people or the Church's followers.

Of course the topic was the "Legitimate Redistribution of Wealth" and, as quoted from the article, "On Friday, Francis called for the United Nations to promote a "worldwide ethical mobilization" of solidarity with the poor in a new spirit of generosity. He said a more equal form of economic progress can be had through "the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society."

While I have no problem at all with the part describing a new spirit of generosity or the cooperation between the private sector and civil society, I have a huge problem with the "by the state" portion. Again, let him lead by example and live like the poor, and have his Vatican counterparts follow the same example. Then come preach to the choir. When I see the Vatican up for sale to the lowest bidder and all their accumulated wealth diversified into liquid assets and freely distributed to the poor then I'll gladly listen to him and follow his recommendations.

Again, I'm not bashing any religion, it just irritates me to no end when I see articles like this. I'm "not a Catholic" for a reason, and I don't appreciate the leader of the Church attempting to influence world leaders. I would feel the same if it was a leader of Islam, Judaism, or the SBC. If he wants to pray for, bless, or give spiritual guidance, that's another topic in itself and I'm all for that.

Link: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_REL_VATICAN_UN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-09-06-31-28

 

[ShoeDiva]

Re: Round 2, here we go again...

Huge eyeroll, don't listen to him. If you don't want to you do not have to, and he does live modestly and the Vatican is not his to sell.

And as for you being irritated, let it go. It is not good for you. People make comments daily trying to influence others or just because they are stupid, it irritates me, but I let it go. It is not worth the lost time of being bothered or the high blood pressure.

 

[Guard Dad]

If a Baptist preacher makes such comments, the political left goes after him.

 

[ShoeDiva]

If a Baptist preacher makes such comments, the political left goes after him.

) The man made a speech and said basically what other Pope's have, nothing new really. I do not "take to heart" or get irritated or up in arms what a Baptist preacher says (well as long as they are not crazy ones ) ) why should you care what the Pope says?

BTW here is the address:



Mr Secretary General,

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am pleased to welcome you, Mr Secretary-General and the leading executive officers of the Agencies, Funds and Programmes of the United Nations and specialized Organizations, as you gather in Rome for the biannual meeting for strategic coordination of the United Nations System Chief Executives Board.

It is significant that today’s meeting takes place shortly after the solemn canonization of my predecessors, Popes John XXIII and John Paul II. The new saints inspire us by their passionate concern for integral human development and for understanding between peoples. This concern was concretely expressed by the numerous visits of John Paul II to the Organizations headquartered in Rome and by his travels to New York, Geneva, Vienna, Nairobi and The Hague.

I thank you, Mr Secretary-General, for your cordial words of introduction. I thank all of you, who are primarily responsible for the international system, for the great efforts being made to ensure world peace, respect for human dignity, the protection of persons, especially the poorest and most vulnerable, and harmonious economic and social development.

The results of the Millennium Development Goals, especially in terms of education and the decrease in extreme poverty, confirm the value of the work of coordination carried out by this Chief Executives Board. At the same time, it must be kept in mind that the world’s peoples deserve and expect even greater results.

An essential principle of management is the refusal to be satisfied with current results and to press forward, in the conviction that those gains are only consolidated by working to achieve even more. In the case of global political and economic organization, much more needs to be achieved, since an important part of humanity does not share in the benefits of progress and is in fact relegated to the status of second-class citizens. Future Sustainable Development Goals must therefore be formulated and carried out with generosity and courage, so that they can have a real impact on the structural causes of poverty and hunger, attain more substantial results in protecting the environment, ensure dignified and productive labor for all, and provide appropriate protection for the family, which is an essential element in sustainable human and social development. Specifically, this involves challenging all forms of injustice and resisting the "economy of exclusion", the "throwaway culture" and the "culture of death" which nowadays sadly risk becoming passively accepted.

With this in mind, I would like to remind you, as representatives of the chief agencies of global cooperation, of an incident which took place two thousand years ago and is recounted in the Gospel of Saint Luke (19:1-10). It is the encounter between Jesus Christ and the rich tax collector Zacchaeus, as a result of which Zacchaeus made a radical decision of sharing and justice, because his conscience had been awakened by the gaze of Jesus. This same spirit should be at the beginning and end of all political and economic activity. The gaze, often silent, of that part of the human family which is cast off, left behind, ought to awaken the conscience of political and economic agents and lead them to generous and courageous decisions with immediate results, like the decision of Zacchaeus. Does this spirit of solidarity and sharing guide all our thoughts and actions?

Today, in concrete terms, an awareness of the dignity of each of our brothers and sisters whose life is sacred and inviolable from conception to natural death must lead us to share with complete freedom the goods which God’s providence has placed in our hands, material goods but also intellectual and spiritual ones, and to give back generously and lavishly whatever we may have earlier unjustly refused to others.

The account of Jesus and Zacchaeus teaches us that above and beyond economic and social systems and theories, there will always be a need to promote generous, effective and practical openness to the needs of others. Jesus does not ask Zacchaeus to change jobs nor does he condemn his financial activity; he simply inspires him to put everything, freely yet immediately and indisputably, at the service of others. Consequently, I do not hesitate to state, as did my predecessors (cf. JOHN PAUL II, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis, 42-43; Centesimus Annus, 43; BENEDICT XVI, Caritas in Veritate, 6; 24-40), that equitable economic and social progress can only be attained by joining scientific and technical abilities with an unfailing commitment to solidarity accompanied by a generous and disinterested spirit of gratuitousness at every level. A contribution to this equitable development will also be made both by international activity aimed at the integral human development of all the world’s peoples and by the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.

Consequently, while encouraging you in your continuing efforts to coordinate the activity of the international agencies, which represents a service to all humanity, I urge you to work together in promoting a true, worldwide ethical mobilization which, beyond all differences of religious or political convictions, will spread and put into practice a shared ideal of fraternity and solidarity, especially with regard to the poorest and those most excluded.

Invoking divine guidance on the work of your Board, I also implore God’s special blessing for you, Mr Secretary-General, for the Presidents, Directors and Secretaries General present among us, and for all the personnel of the United Nations and the other international Agencies and Bodies, and their respective families.

 

[lotstodo]

Indeed one of the Millennium Development Goal demands is that the US give 0.7% GDP to the UN for the achievement of the 8 loosely defined goals.


To eradicate extreme poverty and hunger
To achieve universal primary education
To promote gender equality and empowering women
To reduce child mortality rates
To improve maternal health
To combat HIV/AIDS, malaria, and other diseases
To ensure environmental sustainability
To develop a global partnership for development

 

[J-man]

I was very pleased to see this article today as I couldn't have said it better myself. Not only did this article address my original thread thought but it also mentions Stradial's thoughts in his recent thread regarding property taxes. It is spot on with what some of us have recently posted here regarding the need for the Pope to stick to doctrine and to stay away from political statements:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/05/09/pope-francis-should-stick-to-doctrine-stay-away-from-economic-redistribution/?intcmp=obnetwork

 

[Blazing Saddles]

I was very pleased to see this article today as I couldn't have said it better myself. Not only did this article address my original thread thought but it also mentions Stradial's thoughts in his recent thread regarding property taxes. It is spot on with what some of us have recently posted here regarding the need for the Pope to stick to doctrine and to stay away from political statements:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/05/09/pope-francis-should-stick-to-doctrine-stay-away-from-economic-redistribution/?intcmp=obnetwork

yes. The Pope needs to be the spiritual leading that his people elected him to be. If he's going to be speaking about political issues to the world then he can and will be subjected to criticism. Especially when his ideas infringe on other's lifestyle. Personally, I don't care much for what he says but he does has a lot of influence over a lot of people.

 

[Boss 302]

I was very pleased to see this article today as I couldn't have said it better myself. Not only did this article address my original thread thought but it also mentions Stradial's thoughts in his recent thread regarding property taxes. It is spot on with what some of us have recently posted here regarding the need for the Pope to stick to doctrine and to stay away from political statements:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/05/09/pope-francis-should-stick-to-doctrine-stay-away-from-economic-redistribution/?intcmp=obnetwork

yes. The Pope needs to be the spiritual leading that his people elected him to be. If he's going to be speaking about political issues to the world then he can and will be subjected to criticism. Especially when his ideas infringe on other's lifestyle. Personally, I don't care much for what he says but he does has a lot of influence over a lot of people.

As the pope, he's trying to use his influence on the leaders of nations in a push for socialism. If he wants to help the poor around the world, then he needs to have the Catholic church spend a lot more of its wealth on that to establish an example. He would also be further ahead to address people rather than governments to give and/or do more to help those in needs.

 

[ShoeDiva]

I like him and really do not care what others, outside of the religion, think about what he states, especially an opinion piece.

I am still good with all churches paying property taxes.

 

[J-man]

I like him and really do not care what others, outside of the religion, think about what he states, especially an opinion piece.

I am still good with all churches paying property taxes.

I was just surprised to see the opinion piece posted this morning which was "spot on" for what we've recently been posting here. That's the only reason I brought the topic back up. It was like he had been reading our posts here himself, or maybe someone had been monitoring our posts...hey, wait a minute.

 

[Blazing Saddles]

Perhaps he's wanting to feel more relevant.

 

[lotstodo]

"The legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state". Some would argue that those who are against such things are probably against streetlights and public safety. They would be wrong. There are still others who would say that the Pope has gone full blown Commie. They would also be wrong. But the proponents of collectivism in all it's form can not simply use the fact that on the 1 to 10 scale of socialist thought he isn't a ten as a stand in for saying he isn't a state Socialist. He most certainly is. On a scale from Mcarthy to Marx, he is Francois Hollande. He blames Capitalism for the world's inequalities and intends to make it pay. he doesn't want to own it necessarily, but he certainly wants to bleed it dry. He simply does not have a firm grasp of economics.

 

[ShoeDiva]

"The legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state". Some would argue that those who are against such things are probably against streetlights and public safety. They would be wrong. There are still others who would say that the Pope has gone full blown Commie. They would also be wrong. But the proponents of collectivism in all it's form can not simply use the fact that on the 1 to 10 scale of socialist thought he isn't a ten as a stand in for saying he isn't a state Socialist. He most certainly is. On a scale from Mcarthy to Marx, he is Francois Hollande. He blames Capitalism for the world's inequalities and intends to make it pay. he doesn't want to own it necessarily, but he certainly wants to bleed it dry. He simply does not have a firm grasp of economics.

No offense to you, because I do think you are pretty brilliant, but you do not know that. I also think he is a fairly smart man.

I do think the sound bites and the general misconception is that he is for communism, which I do not believe is correct and I think that he had broader meaning when you read his full statement and all his papers. Which, no need, I am not asking you to, I just think there is more to his statements and thoughts than bleeding capitalism.

 

[ShoeDiva]

I like him and really do not care what others, outside of the religion, think about what he states, especially an opinion piece.

I am still good with all churches paying property taxes.

I was just surprised to see the opinion piece posted this morning which was "spot on" for what we've recently been posting here. That's the only reason I brought the topic back up. It was like he had been reading our posts here himself, or maybe someone had been monitoring our posts...hey, wait a minute.

Seriously, would not surprise me. )

 

[ShoeDiva]

Perhaps he's wanting to feel more relevant.

The Pope? Maybe. Who knows why he decided to use those specific words at that specific time? I would like to believe he felt led to do so, and in reality his words are not against what we have all been taught in the bible. (Okay my bible, just in case it is not in yours. ) )

 

[MacDaddy]

I'm not sure I could find them, but I'm fairly confident I could find similar quotes from prior Popes. And he isn't the only leader that "preaches" goals to be followed by others.

I said it before, the Catholic church (and those that follow the Catholic faith) are among the most generous and giving people. I would suggest, the Pope's intended message is for others follow that example.

 

[lotstodo]

"The legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state". Some would argue that those who are against such things are probably against streetlights and public safety. They would be wrong. There are still others who would say that the Pope has gone full blown Commie. They would also be wrong. But the proponents of collectivism in all it's form can not simply use the fact that on the 1 to 10 scale of socialist thought he isn't a ten as a stand in for saying he isn't a state Socialist. He most certainly is. On a scale from Mcarthy to Marx, he is Francois Hollande. He blames Capitalism for the world's inequalities and intends to make it pay. he doesn't want to own it necessarily, but he certainly wants to bleed it dry. He simply does not have a firm grasp of economics.

No offense to you, because I do think you are pretty brilliant, but you do not know that. I also think he is a fairly smart man.

I do think the sound bites and the general misconception is that he is for communism, which I do not believe is correct and I think that he had broader meaning when you read his full statement and all his papers. Which, no need, I am not asking you to, I just think there is more to his statements and thoughts than bleeding capitalism.

Actually, I do know that. He could not have a good grasp of macroeconomics and make the anti capitalist remarks he has made. In fact his intentional use of the phrase "trickle-down economics" in the English translation is very telling. That is a derogatory term that has no real economic meaning. Capitalism is the ONLY economic system to raise the standards of the lowest members of the economy. Period. That fact is indisputable. He is simply wrong here. That doesn't mean he is stupid, just wrong. He is resurrecting Liberation Theology and using the very same Marxist inequality arguments used against the Military Fascists in the 60's to demand massive forced state redistribution now.

BTW I never even insinuated he is a Communist. He is a Democratic Socialist.

 

[ShoeDiva]

"The legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state". Some would argue that those who are against such things are probably against streetlights and public safety. They would be wrong. There are still others who would say that the Pope has gone full blown Commie. They would also be wrong. But the proponents of collectivism in all it's form can not simply use the fact that on the 1 to 10 scale of socialist thought he isn't a ten as a stand in for saying he isn't a state Socialist. He most certainly is. On a scale from Mcarthy to Marx, he is Francois Hollande. He blames Capitalism for the world's inequalities and intends to make it pay. he doesn't want to own it necessarily, but he certainly wants to bleed it dry. He simply does not have a firm grasp of economics.

No offense to you, because I do think you are pretty brilliant, but you do not know that. I also think he is a fairly smart man.

I do think the sound bites and the general misconception is that he is for communism, which I do not believe is correct and I think that he had broader meaning when you read his full statement and all his papers. Which, no need, I am not asking you to, I just think there is more to his statements and thoughts than bleeding capitalism.

Actually, I do know that. He could not have a good grasp of macroeconomics and make the anti capitalist remarks he has made. In fact his intentional use of the phrase "trickle-down economics" in the English translation is very telling. That is a derogatory term that has no real economic meaning. Capitalism is the ONLY economic system to raise the standards of the lowest members of the economy. Period. That fact is indisputable. He is simply wrong here. That doesn't mean he is stupid, just wrong. He is resurrecting Liberation Theology and using the very same Marxist inequality arguments used against the Military Fascists in the 60's to demand massive forced state redistribution now.

BTW I never even insinuated he is a Communist. He is a Democratic Socialist.

I did not think you insinuated that. I used that as just a generalization of the general misconception of him.

How do you know that he does not want business to grow and spread the wealth through more jobs and opportunities? No matter, he is not stating something new or something Popes prior to him have not stated so I am actually surprised it is bothering anyone. :dunno

 

[ShoeDiva]

I'm not sure I could find them, but I'm fairly confident I could find similar quotes from prior Popes. And he isn't the only leader that "preaches" goals to be followed by others.

I said it before, the Catholic church (and those that follow the Catholic faith) are among the most generous and giving people. I would suggest, the Pope's intended message is for others follow that example.

Yes, they have. No he isn't. )

I agree.

 

[mei lan]

"The legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state". Some would argue that those who are against such things are probably against streetlights and public safety. They would be wrong. There are still others who would say that the Pope has gone full blown Commie. They would also be wrong. But the proponents of collectivism in all it's form can not simply use the fact that on the 1 to 10 scale of socialist thought he isn't a ten as a stand in for saying he isn't a state Socialist. He most certainly is. On a scale from Mcarthy to Marx, he is Francois Hollande. He blames Capitalism for the world's inequalities and intends to make it pay. he doesn't want to own it necessarily, but he certainly wants to bleed it dry. He simply does not have a firm grasp of economics.

No offense to you, because I do think you are pretty brilliant, but you do not know that. I also think he is a fairly smart man.

I do think the sound bites and the general misconception is that he is for communism, which I do not believe is correct and I think that he had broader meaning when you read his full statement and all his papers. Which, no need, I am not asking you to, I just think there is more to his statements and thoughts than bleeding capitalism.

Actually, I do know that. He could not have a good grasp of macroeconomics and make the anti capitalist remarks he has made. In fact his intentional use of the phrase "trickle-down economics" in the English translation is very telling. That is a derogatory term that has no real economic meaning. Capitalism is the ONLY economic system to raise the standards of the lowest members of the economy. Period. That fact is indisputable. He is simply wrong here. That doesn't mean he is stupid, just wrong. He is resurrecting Liberation Theology and using the very same Marxist inequality arguments used against the Military Fascists in the 60's to demand massive forced state redistribution now.

BTW I never even insinuated he is a Communist. He is a Democratic Socialist.

I agree. I don't see his position as malignant; I see him as one who has a lifelong obsession with and calling to help the poor, and coming from a culture that hasn't exactly embraced freedom, he errs in not understanding the true meaning of economic freedom and how that helps the poor.