Supreme Court Arguments Today

[deewee]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

 

[LisaC]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

 

[lotstodo]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

It should not matter to the government what union is "blessed" by which God. If you view marriage as a religious institution, then all the more reason for the government to get their nose out of it.

 

[deewee]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

 

[LisaC]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

But what if you aren't a Christian - then God's will doesn't really apply, right? What about a civil union (a "marriage" created by the state and not the church)? Is that different? :dunno

 

[deewee]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

But what if you aren't a Christian - then God's will doesn't really apply, right? What about a civil union (a "marriage" created by the state and not the church)? Is that different? :dunno

Christian, or not, a union between same sex partners will never be blessed by the One that created marriage. The law of the land may recognize it, but why enter into a union without God's blessing. Marriage is hard enough by itself to go into it without the blessing of two becoming one.

 

[ShoeDiva]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

Wait. Do you think gay people are depraved? I am so reading this wrong, aren't I?

 

[deewee]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

Wait. Do you think gay people are depraved? I am so reading this wrong, aren't I?

Their lust for the same sex is.

 

[ShoeDiva]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

But what if you aren't a Christian - then God's will doesn't really apply, right? What about a civil union (a "marriage" created by the state and not the church)? Is that different? :dunno

Christian, or not, a union between same sex partners will never be blessed by the One that created marriage. The law of the land may recognize it, but why enter into a union without God's blessing. Marriage is hard enough by itself to go into it without the blessing of two becoming one.

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

 

[unionmom]

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And this is where the whole thing hinges, apparently ... estate taxes for a same sex partner but none for an opposite sex spouse. That is the sticky wicket, so to speak.

 

[ShoeDiva]

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And this is where the whole thing hinges, apparently ... estate taxes for a same sex partner but none for an opposite sex spouse. That is the sticky wicket, so to speak.

Take religion totally out of it. Two couple, together that long. One gets penalized, the other does not. All because of a piece of paper. Does show a sort of unfairness, does it not? They should have just allowed the Civil Unions before and then marriage would not be thrown around right now.

 

[Guard Dad]

This might not make me popular around here, but here goes:

First, none of this means a church will be forced to hold a gay marriage ceremony.

Second, homosexual behavior is not a crime in this country, so I'm not sure how the government can say homosexuality is ok, but homosexuals cannot get married.

Third, polygamy is a crime in all 50 states in this country, as is bestiality, pedophilia, etc. There are no federal laws against polygamy, so it is possible that it may at some point fall under the same category as Lawrence vs. State of Texas (the anti-sodomy law). Bestiality is not illegal under federal law, but we will not see marriage between humans and animals because of the issue of consent. Pedophilia is against federal law, so that kind of marriage will never become legal. These are the federal statutes regarding sex crimes.

Personally, I think government should get out of the business of marriage altogether. I don't need the state of North Dakota to approve my marriage to the woman I love. All that matters is our relationship and recognition by my friends and family, most likely through a church wedding. A state marriage certificate is meaningless and is actually a symbol of control. (At times, government has prevented marriage based on race, perceived mental handicap, and even religion.)

As for the legal benefits of marriage: I think a contract could cover those. That is the argument those opposed to gay marriage use to explain why gays don't need marriage, and it is a valid argument.

However, as long as government keeps its snout in marriage, I don't see a constitutional basis for limiting it because of gender.

:thumbsup

Get the government out of the marriage business.

The problem there is, the government gives certain incentives for marriage. So if they are to get out of the marriage business, any incentives or penalties for being married needs to go away.

Yes.

OK. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but let's back up a bit, then look down that road.

Government originally got involved in marriage to "promote general welfare". The plan was to provide incentives for people to form traditional families, have children, etc. In concept, sounds reasonable.

Are we abandoning that goal? Should we? And if we do remove all incentives for marriage, does that mean that widows/widowers will no longer get SS benefits for a deceased spouse? VA bennies for a deceased spouse? Etc?

In the absence of government recognized marriage; insurance companies, employers, etc would be free to make their own rules...no? Unless replaced by civil unions, and then what is the difference?

 

[lotstodo]

i strongly disagree on the origins of government's involvement in the act of "marriage". For centuries it was a word used for a private contract between families. Think ten goats and a donkey for a daughter's hand in marriage. In the United States, the concept of English common law marriage persisted until after the civil war when the new concept of a state license was employed not to promote the institution of commitment, but to prevent interracial marriages. At the turn of the 20th century, only about half of the states even had marriage licenses. The states licensure involvement in marriage is anything but an outgrowth of "promoting the general welfare". It was an intentional restriction. The proper places to promote what we might think of as traditional values would be the home and the church.

In a free market society it is not unreasonable to assume that in order for a partnership to receive any benefits afforded a partnership, that proof in the form of a contract be presented. As you know, that is the sometimes the case in business partnerships. I have no problem with the concept of private contract, but I do with the concept of government licensure. When the government declares one condition valid, it by default invalidates all other conditions. It picks winners and losers, usually with vast unintended consequences. Insurance benefits were originally a product of free market competition for quality employees. They are now ingrained in our society, and those benefits would likely continue upon proof of contract, no government involvement necessary. In fact, as I see it, right now the government through Obamacare is the biggest threat to private insurance benefits.

As for government provided "benefits", I personally think that there is no such thing as a government "benefit" because of the unseen costs, and that all so called programs should be eliminated in ways that would not penalize those already forced to participate. But putting that aside for the moment, write a simple law stating that for legal purposes, the word "marriage" be equated with any duly signed and witnessed domestic partnership agreement in all dealings with government.

I would leave private industry and religious groups to decide the matter for themselves. I would expect businesses to go along with the concept and religious groups to continue as they have.

 

[Madea]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

But what if you aren't a Christian - then God's will doesn't really apply, right? What about a civil union (a "marriage" created by the state and not the church)? Is that different? :dunno

Christian, or not, a union between same sex partners will never be blessed by the One that created marriage. The law of the land may recognize it, but why enter into a union without God's blessing. Marriage is hard enough by itself to go into it without the blessing of two becoming one.

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And, they are in the minority. What REALLY fires me up is when those who support gay marriage compare a long time gay couple to Hollywood marriages. Don't compare my marriage to Hollywood to make your point. :elmergun

 

[ShoeDiva]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

But what if you aren't a Christian - then God's will doesn't really apply, right? What about a civil union (a "marriage" created by the state and not the church)? Is that different? :dunno

Christian, or not, a union between same sex partners will never be blessed by the One that created marriage. The law of the land may recognize it, but why enter into a union without God's blessing. Marriage is hard enough by itself to go into it without the blessing of two becoming one.

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And, they are in the minority. What REALLY fires me up is when those who support gay marriage compare a long time gay couple to Hollywood marriages. Don't compare my marriage to Hollywood to make your point. :elmergun

How do we know they are in the minority? :dunno Really. We have no records. I do agree about Hollywood marriages. Talk about making a mockery of something. :rant

 

[Madea]

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And this is where the whole thing hinges, apparently ... estate taxes for a same sex partner but none for an opposite sex spouse. That is the sticky wicket, so to speak.

Take religion totally out of it. Two couple, together that long. One gets penalized, the other does not. All because of a piece of paper. Does show a sort of unfairness, does it not? They should have just allowed the Civil Unions before and then marriage would not be thrown around right now.

And, therein lies the problem. With this discussion and with the divorce rate. We the people have reduced marriage to a piece of paper. I'm guilty of the same when I go to work.

 

[ShoeDiva]

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And this is where the whole thing hinges, apparently ... estate taxes for a same sex partner but none for an opposite sex spouse. That is the sticky wicket, so to speak.

Take religion totally out of it. Two couple, together that long. One gets penalized, the other does not. All because of a piece of paper. Does show a sort of unfairness, does it not? They should have just allowed the Civil Unions before and then marriage would not be thrown around right now.

And, therein lies the problem. With this discussion and with the divorce rate. We the people have reduced marriage to a piece of paper. I'm guilty of the same when I go to work.

I think you are reaching there with my comment. I do not believe you believe it to be a piece of paper either. But it is a contract on a piece of paper.

 

[Madea]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

But what if you aren't a Christian - then God's will doesn't really apply, right? What about a civil union (a "marriage" created by the state and not the church)? Is that different? :dunno

Christian, or not, a union between same sex partners will never be blessed by the One that created marriage. The law of the land may recognize it, but why enter into a union without God's blessing. Marriage is hard enough by itself to go into it without the blessing of two becoming one.

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And, they are in the minority. What REALLY fires me up is when those who support gay marriage compare a long time gay couple to Hollywood marriages. Don't compare my marriage to Hollywood to make your point. :elmergun

How do we know they are in the minority? :dunno Really. We have no records. I do agree about Hollywood marriages. Talk about making a mockery of something. :rant

I'm (honestly) basing it on personal experience. I have quite a few friends/acquaintances that are gay/lesbian. And of all the couples, only 1 has been in a long-term committed relationship (20+ years). Some relationships have lasted many years, but I truly believe that really long term are the minority.

 

[Madea]

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And this is where the whole thing hinges, apparently ... estate taxes for a same sex partner but none for an opposite sex spouse. That is the sticky wicket, so to speak.

Take religion totally out of it. Two couple, together that long. One gets penalized, the other does not. All because of a piece of paper. Does show a sort of unfairness, does it not? They should have just allowed the Civil Unions before and then marriage would not be thrown around right now.

And, therein lies the problem. With this discussion and with the divorce rate. We the people have reduced marriage to a piece of paper. I'm guilty of the same when I go to work.

I think you are reaching there with my comment. I do not believe you believe it to be a piece of paper either. But it is a contract on a piece of paper.

It wasn't an attempt to criticize you for saying it, but it's a common term. When many believe the paper represents SO much more.

 

[ShoeDiva]

Doesn't matter what the courts say about gay marriage. It will never be recognized by the One that instituted marriage, the two will not become one & the union will never be blessed by God.

If it "doesn't matter," then why are so many Christians so vocally opposed to it? :dunno

Because it is wrong. I am opposed to it, although I recognize most people nowadays seem to be bent on exerting their will above God's will and we will most likely see gay marriage legal very soon. That doesn't mean that I will just keep my mouth shut about it. There comes a point where God gives man over to his own depravity (individually and collectively) and that is what I believe we are witnessing these days.

But what if you aren't a Christian - then God's will doesn't really apply, right? What about a civil union (a "marriage" created by the state and not the church)? Is that different? :dunno

Christian, or not, a union between same sex partners will never be blessed by the One that created marriage. The law of the land may recognize it, but why enter into a union without God's blessing. Marriage is hard enough by itself to go into it without the blessing of two becoming one.

The argument on that one is right at the center of this. Two woman, together for 40 years.....heck they were doing something right to be with one person that long! You know the divorce rates. :dunno

And, they are in the minority. What REALLY fires me up is when those who support gay marriage compare a long time gay couple to Hollywood marriages. Don't compare my marriage to Hollywood to make your point. :elmergun

How do we know they are in the minority? :dunno Really. We have no records. I do agree about Hollywood marriages. Talk about making a mockery of something. :rant

I'm (honestly) basing it on personal experience. I have quite a few friends/acquaintances that are gay/lesbian. And of all the couples, only 1 has been in a long-term committed relationship (20+ years). Some relationships have lasted many years, but I truly believe that really long term are the minority.

We are friends we six gay couples. (husband has worked in midtown for years and that is how we met three of them ) ) 2 have been together longer than us (20+) years the rest fall between 7-and I think 12. (I really can't remember) So my experience is totally different. Honestly besides them, I only have a few straight couples I know that have been together so long. Most I know are on at least the second marriage and not that long. (Now I did not include people here )