honeybunny
Pursuit Driver
There is no comparison.
:girlsaysno
:girlsaysno
I know when my son did the report on it a few years back he used Google (to start.) There were hundreds of articles at the time. :dunno It was the fact he did the report that made me realize it was happening.deewee date=1448084600 said:ShoeDiva date=1448075691 said:That is so horrible! I did not realize until a few years ago that they were doing that, the torture they put them through is unfathomable!Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448074958 said:Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people. John Wycliffe can tell you about that. The church burned him at the stake for the crime of bringing the Bible to the people. The biggest thing keeping Muslims from reading the Koran is illiteracy.
And I would say we're guilty of judging the Muslims in a way we don't want to be judged. (Matthew 7) It's right to condemn the extremists just as we should condemn those of any other faith. But what I've been reading on this board does not make that distinction. We seem to see Muslims as the enemy, not the extremist groups. Most Muslims just want to live their lives. I certainly don't want to be judged because of this awful pastor in Arizona or the Christians in Africa killing witches right now.
And let's not forget the big role the US played in bringing ISIS to power. We created the opening that allowed that foul crop to grow. And, through the years, we have interfered in the middle east. We deposed an Iranian government, installed our own pet dictator, and seemed to be shocked when our pet dictator fell to Muslim fundamentalists.
Most people don't even understand the different branches of Islam. How many know the difference between Shia and Sunni? How many know about the bitter hatred between them? How many people know that Iran is bitterly opposed to Isis and has been fighting them? And why, after 9-11, have we largely given the Wahhabis a pass when that act of terrorism grew from Wahhabism? Or that ISIS has sprung forth from Wahhabism?
I could not find any online articles about this. Do you have any links?
I just typed in burning witches in Africa and received 399,000 hits. What are you typing?ShoeDiva date=1448108254 said:I know when my son did the report on it a few years back he used Google (to start.) There were hundreds of articles at the time. :dunno It was the fact he did the report that made me realize it was happening.deewee date=1448084600 said:ShoeDiva date=1448075691 said:That is so horrible! I did not realize until a few years ago that they were doing that, the torture they put them through is unfathomable!Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448074958 said:Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people. John Wycliffe can tell you about that. The church burned him at the stake for the crime of bringing the Bible to the people. The biggest thing keeping Muslims from reading the Koran is illiteracy.
And I would say we're guilty of judging the Muslims in a way we don't want to be judged. (Matthew 7) It's right to condemn the extremists just as we should condemn those of any other faith. But what I've been reading on this board does not make that distinction. We seem to see Muslims as the enemy, not the extremist groups. Most Muslims just want to live their lives. I certainly don't want to be judged because of this awful pastor in Arizona or the Christians in Africa killing witches right now.
And let's not forget the big role the US played in bringing ISIS to power. We created the opening that allowed that foul crop to grow. And, through the years, we have interfered in the middle east. We deposed an Iranian government, installed our own pet dictator, and seemed to be shocked when our pet dictator fell to Muslim fundamentalists.
Most people don't even understand the different branches of Islam. How many know the difference between Shia and Sunni? How many know about the bitter hatred between them? How many people know that Iran is bitterly opposed to Isis and has been fighting them? And why, after 9-11, have we largely given the Wahhabis a pass when that act of terrorism grew from Wahhabism? Or that ISIS has sprung forth from Wahhabism?
I could not find any online articles about this. Do you have any links?
Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448064433 said:ShoeDiva date=1448060388 said:I agree I do too, but I also know thousands of Muslims that feel the same way we do about them being compared to ISIS. Many are speaking out on social media, through their leaders, etc. against the comparison and the fact that they spend so much time apologizing. They did not do it, fanatics taking things out of context (no one says that certain things are not in the Quran, just that they do not apply to this day and time, just like stuff in the Bible that no longer apply) did and they have to live with the constant hatred toward them for what one crazy group does.Madea date=1448049529 said:ShoeDiva date=1448045353 said:You do know that in the Quran that there are multiple places where it also states that you can not kill anyone.Madea date=1448036754 said:I don't see anywhere that he says if you don't agree with him then he must kill you. Even the Westboro crazies don't kill people.
No. I could not confirm or deny that. I won't even pretend that I know because I have not read it and have no current plans to read it. I do know that the Bible specifically says thou shalt not kill.
I will admit that I resent being compared to ISIS (in any fashion whatsoever, either by the video above (or to Westboro). I can assure you that NO members of my church have posted online pictures of themselves holding someone's severed head in their hand. And, I really don't care to hear anymore about the "Crusades" from almost a thousand years ago.
I post things like this as a reminder that the sick element in ISIS is also in our own faith. Most of us are secularized enough that we don't follow the extreme things in our Bible, but they are there. But, sick people like this man, given the right conditions, could inflame passions. We've seen it in the Muslim world. Right now, the extremist element is getting stronger in Turkey, and it already happened in Afghanistan, Iran, and other countries.
We already are seeing crazies targeting Muslims in this country (or targeting Hindus since they're too ignorant to know the difference). These are the same kinds of people who, in a different environment, would be cutting off heads.
And let's not forget that the Inquisition is a much more contemporary evil of the Christian faith. It didn't end until the 19th/20th centuries (a little fuzzy, depending on definitions). In 1858, there is the Mortara case: a 6-year-old Jewish boy was kidnaped from his parents by Church authorities. Why? He was given emergency baptism by a servant when it looked like he would die. This made him Catholic under church doctrine. The Catholic Church brainwashed him against the religion of his birth and he went on to become a Catholic priest and died that way, thanks to the CHURCH kidnaping him. Pope Pius IX defended this kidnaping. Later, in the 20th century and 21st century this issue came up again as the church attempted to beatify and canonize him. Now, I'm Presbyterian, so I don't believe in either of these things, but I also don't think these honors should be given to a man who defended such an act, and have a problem with the modern church considering them.
Or, more contemporary examples, look at the witches being killed in the modern day by Christians in Africa. Killing for religion is very much alive in the Christian faith.
And that's why we have to fight the hate and evil in our church, and look with clear and open eyes at our own faith. It's easy to turn a blind eye when it's on our side.
I have my doubts about that. But regardless, that was long ago. We all have virtually unlimited access to Biblical knowledge now.stradial date=1448079960 said:Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448074958 said:Guard Dad date=1448066299 said:I don't think it's a matter of being secularized; I think it's more about being more civilized and educated. All of us have easy access to our Bibles, so we can read with our own eyes what it says. I have been told that the Muslim clerics actually try to keep other Muslims from reading for themselves, and prefer that their people blindly believe what they are being taught.
In contrast; our Bible warns of false prophets and commands up to pass what we are being taught by the muster of The Word (meaning confirm what our preachers tell us by doing our own Bible study).
And frankly, our society as a whole puts more value on human life than Muslims usually do.
The Koran warns against false prophets as well.
Who does more wrong than those who invent a lie against Allah? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! The curse of Allah is on those who do wrong! [The Holy Quran,11:18]
Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people. John Wycliffe can tell you about that. The church burned him at the stake for the crime of bringing the Bible to the people. The biggest thing keeping Muslims from reading the Koran is illiteracy.
And I would say we're guilty of judging the Muslims in a way we don't want to be judged. (Matthew 7) It's right to condemn the extremists just as we should condemn those of any other faith. But what I've been reading on this board does not make that distinction. We seem to see Muslims as the enemy, not the extremist groups. Most Muslims just want to live their lives. I certainly don't want to be judged because of this awful pastor in Arizona or the Christians in Africa killing witches right now.
And let's not forget the big role the US played in bringing ISIS to power. We created the opening that allowed that foul crop to grow. And, through the years, we have interfered in the middle east. We deposed an Iranian government, installed our own pet dictator, and seemed to be shocked when our pet dictator fell to Muslim fundamentalists.
Most people don't even understand the different branches of Islam. How many know the difference between Shia and Sunni? How many know about the bitter hatred between them? How many people know that Iran is bitterly opposed to Isis and has been fighting them? And why, after 9-11, have we largely given the Wahhabis a pass when that act of terrorism grew from Wahhabism? Or that ISIS has sprung forth from Wahhabism?
"Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people."
One of the main reasons that the printing press was not welcomed by the leaders of the christian churches.
I'm heard and read that for years. Many of the documentaries I've watched said the same thing. It was apparently forbidden at one time (might still be, dunno) to translate the Quaran into other languages because the clerics didn't want people actually reading it for themselves.ShoeDiva date=1448075522 said::wut Who told you that?Guard Dad date=1448066299 said:I don't think it's a matter of being secularized; I think it's more about being more civilized and educated. All of us have easy access to our Bibles, so we can read with our own eyes what it says. I have been told that the Muslim clerics actually try to keep other Muslims from reading for themselves, and prefer that their people blindly believe what they are being taught.
In contrast; our Bible warns of false prophets and commands up to pass what we are being taught by the muster of The Word (meaning confirm what our preachers tell us by doing our own Bible study).
And frankly, our society as a whole puts more value on human life than Muslims usually do.
Doubt all you wish, still true.Guard Dad date=1448115789 said:I have my doubts about that. But regardless, that was long ago. We all have virtually unlimited access to Biblical knowledge now.stradial date=1448079960 said:Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448074958 said:Guard Dad date=1448066299 said:I don't think it's a matter of being secularized; I think it's more about being more civilized and educated. All of us have easy access to our Bibles, so we can read with our own eyes what it says. I have been told that the Muslim clerics actually try to keep other Muslims from reading for themselves, and prefer that their people blindly believe what they are being taught.
In contrast; our Bible warns of false prophets and commands up to pass what we are being taught by the muster of The Word (meaning confirm what our preachers tell us by doing our own Bible study).
And frankly, our society as a whole puts more value on human life than Muslims usually do.
The Koran warns against false prophets as well.
Who does more wrong than those who invent a lie against Allah? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! The curse of Allah is on those who do wrong! [The Holy Quran,11:18]
Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people. John Wycliffe can tell you about that. The church burned him at the stake for the crime of bringing the Bible to the people. The biggest thing keeping Muslims from reading the Koran is illiteracy.
And I would say we're guilty of judging the Muslims in a way we don't want to be judged. (Matthew 7) It's right to condemn the extremists just as we should condemn those of any other faith. But what I've been reading on this board does not make that distinction. We seem to see Muslims as the enemy, not the extremist groups. Most Muslims just want to live their lives. I certainly don't want to be judged because of this awful pastor in Arizona or the Christians in Africa killing witches right now.
And let's not forget the big role the US played in bringing ISIS to power. We created the opening that allowed that foul crop to grow. And, through the years, we have interfered in the middle east. We deposed an Iranian government, installed our own pet dictator, and seemed to be shocked when our pet dictator fell to Muslim fundamentalists.
Most people don't even understand the different branches of Islam. How many know the difference between Shia and Sunni? How many know about the bitter hatred between them? How many people know that Iran is bitterly opposed to Isis and has been fighting them? And why, after 9-11, have we largely given the Wahhabis a pass when that act of terrorism grew from Wahhabism? Or that ISIS has sprung forth from Wahhabism?
"Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people."
One of the main reasons that the printing press was not welcomed by the leaders of the christian churches.
Well, I doubt that affects Christianity today.stradial date=1448117083 said:Doubt all you wish, still true.Guard Dad date=1448115789 said:I have my doubts about that. But regardless, that was long ago. We all have virtually unlimited access to Biblical knowledge now.stradial date=1448079960 said:Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448074958 said:Guard Dad date=1448066299 said:I don't think it's a matter of being secularized; I think it's more about being more civilized and educated. All of us have easy access to our Bibles, so we can read with our own eyes what it says. I have been told that the Muslim clerics actually try to keep other Muslims from reading for themselves, and prefer that their people blindly believe what they are being taught.
In contrast; our Bible warns of false prophets and commands up to pass what we are being taught by the muster of The Word (meaning confirm what our preachers tell us by doing our own Bible study).
And frankly, our society as a whole puts more value on human life than Muslims usually do.
The Koran warns against false prophets as well.
Who does more wrong than those who invent a lie against Allah? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! The curse of Allah is on those who do wrong! [The Holy Quran,11:18]
Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people. John Wycliffe can tell you about that. The church burned him at the stake for the crime of bringing the Bible to the people. The biggest thing keeping Muslims from reading the Koran is illiteracy.
And I would say we're guilty of judging the Muslims in a way we don't want to be judged. (Matthew 7) It's right to condemn the extremists just as we should condemn those of any other faith. But what I've been reading on this board does not make that distinction. We seem to see Muslims as the enemy, not the extremist groups. Most Muslims just want to live their lives. I certainly don't want to be judged because of this awful pastor in Arizona or the Christians in Africa killing witches right now.
And let's not forget the big role the US played in bringing ISIS to power. We created the opening that allowed that foul crop to grow. And, through the years, we have interfered in the middle east. We deposed an Iranian government, installed our own pet dictator, and seemed to be shocked when our pet dictator fell to Muslim fundamentalists.
Most people don't even understand the different branches of Islam. How many know the difference between Shia and Sunni? How many know about the bitter hatred between them? How many people know that Iran is bitterly opposed to Isis and has been fighting them? And why, after 9-11, have we largely given the Wahhabis a pass when that act of terrorism grew from Wahhabism? Or that ISIS has sprung forth from Wahhabism?
"Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people."
One of the main reasons that the printing press was not welcomed by the leaders of the christian churches.
And yes, it was a long long long time ago, sometime in the 15th century.
I doubt that also, in fact, I'll go so far as to say, it doesn't.Guard Dad date=1448117785 said:Well, I doubt that affects Christianity today.stradial date=1448117083 said:Doubt all you wish, still true.Guard Dad date=1448115789 said:I have my doubts about that. But regardless, that was long ago. We all have virtually unlimited access to Biblical knowledge now.stradial date=1448079960 said:Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448074958 said:Guard Dad date=1448066299 said:I don't think it's a matter of being secularized; I think it's more about being more civilized and educated. All of us have easy access to our Bibles, so we can read with our own eyes what it says. I have been told that the Muslim clerics actually try to keep other Muslims from reading for themselves, and prefer that their people blindly believe what they are being taught.
In contrast; our Bible warns of false prophets and commands up to pass what we are being taught by the muster of The Word (meaning confirm what our preachers tell us by doing our own Bible study).
And frankly, our society as a whole puts more value on human life than Muslims usually do.
The Koran warns against false prophets as well.
Who does more wrong than those who invent a lie against Allah? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! The curse of Allah is on those who do wrong! [The Holy Quran,11:18]
Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people. John Wycliffe can tell you about that. The church burned him at the stake for the crime of bringing the Bible to the people. The biggest thing keeping Muslims from reading the Koran is illiteracy.
And I would say we're guilty of judging the Muslims in a way we don't want to be judged. (Matthew 7) It's right to condemn the extremists just as we should condemn those of any other faith. But what I've been reading on this board does not make that distinction. We seem to see Muslims as the enemy, not the extremist groups. Most Muslims just want to live their lives. I certainly don't want to be judged because of this awful pastor in Arizona or the Christians in Africa killing witches right now.
And let's not forget the big role the US played in bringing ISIS to power. We created the opening that allowed that foul crop to grow. And, through the years, we have interfered in the middle east. We deposed an Iranian government, installed our own pet dictator, and seemed to be shocked when our pet dictator fell to Muslim fundamentalists.
Most people don't even understand the different branches of Islam. How many know the difference between Shia and Sunni? How many know about the bitter hatred between them? How many people know that Iran is bitterly opposed to Isis and has been fighting them? And why, after 9-11, have we largely given the Wahhabis a pass when that act of terrorism grew from Wahhabism? Or that ISIS has sprung forth from Wahhabism?
"Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people."
One of the main reasons that the printing press was not welcomed by the leaders of the christian churches.
And yes, it was a long long long time ago, sometime in the 15th century.
honeybunny date=1448109853 said:^^^ This is what a false equivalence looks like.
deewee date=1448084600 said:I could not find any online articles about this. Do you have any links?
Guard Dad date=1448115932 said:I'm heard and read that for years. Many of the documentaries I've watched said the same thing. It was apparently forbidden at one time (might still be, dunno) to translate the Quaran into other languages because the clerics didn't want people actually reading it for themselves.
Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448120320 said:No, you just grew up with your little superstition and think it's the right one. Here is what Christians do:honeybunny date=1448109853 said:^^^ This is what a false equivalence looks like.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/07/the-christian-terrorist-who-vowed-to-kill-muslims-and-may-go-free.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2015/01/un-muslims-ethnically-cleansed-car-2015196546788288.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge
deewee date=1448084600 said:I could not find any online articles about this. Do you have any links?
Here is just a small sample:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html
http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/seven-accused-african-witches-burned-to-death-141011.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/08/25/nigeria.child.witches/
honeybunny date=1448121242 said:Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448120320 said:No, you just grew up with your little superstition and think it's the right one. Here is what Christians do:honeybunny date=1448109853 said:^^^ This is what a false equivalence looks like.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/07/the-christian-terrorist-who-vowed-to-kill-muslims-and-may-go-free.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2015/01/un-muslims-ethnically-cleansed-car-2015196546788288.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge
deewee date=1448084600 said:I could not find any online articles about this. Do you have any links?
Here is just a small sample:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html
http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/seven-accused-african-witches-burned-to-death-141011.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/08/25/nigeria.child.witches/
I am not a Christian sweetheart and you have indeed committed a logical fallacy.
[font=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]Helen Ukpabio, who is nuts herself. I wouldn't call her a true Christian. [/font]ShoeDiva date=1448108383 said:I just typed in burning witches in Africa and received 399,000 hits. What are you typing?ShoeDiva date=1448108254 said:I know when my son did the report on it a few years back he used Google (to start.) There were hundreds of articles at the time. :dunno It was the fact he did the report that made me realize it was happening.deewee date=1448084600 said:ShoeDiva date=1448075691 said:That is so horrible! I did not realize until a few years ago that they were doing that, the torture they put them through is unfathomable!Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448074958 said:Also, the Christian faith has a history of keeping the Bible away from the people. John Wycliffe can tell you about that. The church burned him at the stake for the crime of bringing the Bible to the people. The biggest thing keeping Muslims from reading the Koran is illiteracy.
And I would say we're guilty of judging the Muslims in a way we don't want to be judged. (Matthew 7) It's right to condemn the extremists just as we should condemn those of any other faith. But what I've been reading on this board does not make that distinction. We seem to see Muslims as the enemy, not the extremist groups. Most Muslims just want to live their lives. I certainly don't want to be judged because of this awful pastor in Arizona or the Christians in Africa killing witches right now.
And let's not forget the big role the US played in bringing ISIS to power. We created the opening that allowed that foul crop to grow. And, through the years, we have interfered in the middle east. We deposed an Iranian government, installed our own pet dictator, and seemed to be shocked when our pet dictator fell to Muslim fundamentalists.
Most people don't even understand the different branches of Islam. How many know the difference between Shia and Sunni? How many know about the bitter hatred between them? How many people know that Iran is bitterly opposed to Isis and has been fighting them? And why, after 9-11, have we largely given the Wahhabis a pass when that act of terrorism grew from Wahhabism? Or that ISIS has sprung forth from Wahhabism?
I could not find any online articles about this. Do you have any links?
Yes, I read those articles, which are very vague about the perpetrators other than calling them "Christian". I am not saying these incidences are not happening. I am saying the unnamed people committing these atrocities can not be true Christians.Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448120320 said:honeybunny date=1448109853 said:^^^ This is what a false equivalence looks like.
No, you just grew up with your little superstition and think it's the right one. Here is what Christians do:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/07/the-christian-terrorist-who-vowed-to-kill-muslims-and-may-go-free.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2015/01/un-muslims-ethnically-cleansed-car-2015196546788288.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge
deewee date=1448084600 said:I could not find any online articles about this. Do you have any links?
Here is just a small sample:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html
http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/seven-accused-african-witches-burned-to-death-141011.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/08/25/nigeria.child.witches/
deewee date=1448124465 said:Yes, I read those articles, which are very vague about the perpetrators other than calling them "Christian". I am not saying these incidences are not happening. I am saying the unnamed people committing these atrocities can not be true Christians.
A bunch of articles with nothing to support the true identity of guilty parties. If it can be said that the Islam extremists are not true Muslims, then the same can be said of the guilty in these stories.
I respectfully disagree about them being true Christians. One can call themselves a Christian, without ever having been saved.Waski_the_Squirrel date=1448125632 said:deewee date=1448124465 said:Yes, I read those articles, which are very vague about the perpetrators other than calling them "Christian". I am not saying these incidences are not happening. I am saying the unnamed people committing these atrocities can not be true Christians.
A bunch of articles with nothing to support the true identity of guilty parties. If it can be said that the Islam extremists are not true Muslims, then the same can be said of the guilty in these stories.
I agree about the bolded part. Except for one thing: I think the extremists are true Muslims, just as I think the examples of Christian extremists are true Christians. If they have accepted Jesus as their savior, are they not saved?
My whole reason for posting this is because of people like Ted Cruz who only want Christian refugees in this country (unless they're Mexican). We have people saying that "Muslim" is the problem, not extremist.
I started this thread because I think it's important to recognize extremism in our own faith and to judge Muslims by the same standards we hold ourselves to. ISIS is an evil group that wants to spread ignorance and darkness across the world. The pastor I posted has the same attitude. But, at the moment, he can't get away with the extreme acts. However, I posted links of other places where Christians do get away with those extreme acts.
We need to be introspective. History has examples of educated, civilized nations like ours descending into barbarism and evil in just a few short years, entirely through internal forces.