Ken Ham/Bill Nye debate

LisaC

I'm here to spin the moral compass.
Did anyone else catch it last night? It was actually pretty good. I don't think either side gave a really strong argument to convince someone to switch sides, but it was interesting to hear both perspectives. My favorite quote was when Nye was talking about the need for scientists to help find out how the world began because it was unknown. Ham replied with "there is a book that tells us how it began."
 
ShoeDiva said:
No. I read where you were going to watch though. ;D

And, I actually watched most of it. I was able to stream it on my iPad so I was able to keep listening while I was doing other things.
 
If the "good book" had all the answers, why is the Vatican working with and supporting scientific research (to the tune of several $$Million$$) to look into these matters, as well as other stuff like DNA research, presence of extraterrestrial aliens, and verification of "Old Testament" bible stories?
 
Winchester said:
If the "good book" had all the answers, why is the Vatican working with and supporting scientific research (to the tune of several $$Million$$) to look into these matters, as well as other stuff like DNA research, presence of extraterrestrial aliens, and verification of "Old Testament" bible stories?

I don't know, ask the Pope. But, it could be to provide further evidence of intelligent design and rule out some of the theories of evolution.
 
Winchester said:
If the "good book" had all the answers, why is the Vatican working with and supporting scientific research (to the tune of several $$Million$$) to look into these matters, as well as other stuff like DNA research, presence of extraterrestrial aliens, and verification of "Old Testament" bible stories?

Because inquiring minds want to know. I'm a Bible thumping baptist but I want scientific advancements to help mankind. I'm also a believer in the possibility of alien life and see no contradiction with that and Creationism.
 
Meh... they both coexist peacefully in my mind :


A benevolent force of the universe created the beautiful and intelligent design of evolution.


;D
 
J-man said:
Winchester said:
If the "good book" had all the answers, why is the Vatican working with and supporting scientific research (to the tune of several $$Million$$) to look into these matters, as well as other stuff like DNA research, presence of extraterrestrial aliens, and verification of "Old Testament" bible stories?

Because inquiring minds want to know. I'm a Bible thumping baptist but I want scientific advancements to help mankind. I'm also a believer in the possibility of alien life and see no contradiction with that and Creationism.

This

Most of you know that I'm a Christian but very much a science guy too.

Sent from my LG-E980 using Tapatalk
 
I'm sorry, but there is not one wit, morsel, or shred of evidence for Intelligent Design or Young Earth Creationism. "Because the Bible tells us so " is not evidence. By that standard, the existence of Superman Comics is evidence of Superman. By the same token, if one surmises, again without evidence, that life is so complex that it couldn't have evolved, then leaps to a supernatural explanation for it they are either not in possession of the facts, are choosing to ignore them, or are holding Science to a much higher standard than religion. If I see a rock on my front lawn one morning and I don't know how it got there, I don't jump to an irrational conclusion of how it appeared. It is far more likely that kids were responsible than space aliens or the unseen hand of a supernatural being. Scientists today do not posses all of the facts, but they do possess enough to know the basics and many of the particulars of how the universe evolved, and it took far longer than six days or 6000 years. There is unimpeachable proof of that, and that proof does not fit in any way with any other explanation other than Physics. No Creationist has ever brought up a salient point that made a scientist say "maybe we need to look into that", because there is no. way to look into that. There are no facts to check, there is no process to complete, and there is no experiment to conduct or evidence to ponder. Faith by definition is belief in the absence of evidence.

Science requires evidence, Creationism requires faith. This is why nobody on the "other side" will be convinced. The two sides are speaking entirely different languages and using entirely different parts of the brain. You either believe what you see or you believe IN what you feel. Science is real, provable, and by the same token disprovable. That last part is what makes it the bearer of fact, not fiction. To this moment, not one Creationist or Young Earther has disproved one tenant of Cosmological or Evolution Science. Stephen Hawking put it best when he said that not one problem we have attempted to answer in the universe has required the hand of God, but every one has required expanding our knowledge of Physics. Neil deGrasse Tyson also answered the question by saying that Evolution exists whether you believe in it or not. It requires no faith, but it exists by virtue of evidence. Macro evolution is a fact.

These shows are fine for entertainment value, but they most certainly do not expand human understanding of the world around us. There is a place for science and a place for faith, but they are not equipped to answer the same questions or to fulfill the same human needs or desires. Science and Faith can peacefully coexist as long as they remain in their respective areas. When religion attempts to use faith over fact to answer physical questions it fails miserably, and to my way of thinking, does itself a great disservice in the process.
 
lotstodo said:
I'm sorry, but there is not one wit, morsel, or shred of evidence for Intelligent Design or Young Earth Creationism.

Well, you're right. But....

First off, I'm not all hung up on the Young Earth stuff. An almighty god could make Earth test at any age he wants it to.

On the creationism subject....for Christians, this is simply a matter of faith. Science is one thing, faith is another. They don't have to conflict. Both are important to me, but I look to them for different things. Science explains how, Faith explains why. No conflict there to me.
 
My trouble with creationism is that it claims to be science when it is not. I believe that God created all that we see. But, so many want to substitute the Bible for evidence when it was never meant to be used that way.

Too many creationists also don't understand what a scientific theory is. It is not the same as a social theory. Scientific theories are evidence based. Creationists then hide behind the dubious distinction of observable science and claim that since evolution was not observed, it is not supported by evidence. They don't understand the whole idea of indirect observation. Every year, my Chemistry class measures the size of an oleic acid molecule, and we do not do it directly with calipers. We use indirect methods.

What the creationists are succeeding in is creating this idea that science and intellect are anti-Christian. They are also succeeding in helping non-believers to think that Christian faith implies ignorance and stupidity. This side show gets people all riled up, and takes attention away from issues of the faith that are much more important.

I would ask if every word of the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If God wished, he could have written us a nice concise 2-3 page Bible that stated all His moral principles directly. He could have attached this to a short book that was a history of the people. Instead, the Bible was written in such a way that we have to read it, interpret it, and pray about it in order to understand it. As an easy example, this is one of the reasons Jesus spoke in parables instead of saying things like, "Forgive those who sin and repent and come back to the faith." (The prodigal son)

Faith is not science. Religion cannot be proven by science except to those whose hearts and minds are already open to it. To me, a sunset is one of God's gifts and shows the wonder of creation. That I have a Physics degree means that I understand what causes it. That helps me appreciate it all the more. To an atheist, it's just the Physics and in no way shows the wonder of God. Their hearts are closed to that wonder. Sadly, some Christians have allowed their hearts and minds to be closed to the wonder of science because they have allowed themselves to be convinced that science is somehow an enemy of Christianity.

I may try again to get through the debate. My trouble with it is that there is no common ground between the two world views. They don't even have the same fundamental values.

Religion should not masquerade as science. Nor should science masquerade as religion. They are not the same thing.

Imagine being a caveman who is listening to thunder. As a human, you might explain it away and "the gods rolling boulders in the clouds." Creationists would scoff at this explanation, even if we fill in the Christian God. However, they have no problem saying that God created the universe in 7 literal days. Really, the message behind creation is that God created it all, and that mankind was chosen as special among his creations.
 
My business partner hit me up with this topic the very first thing this morning. My response was, "I heard about it but had no interest in listening to it, no good outcome could come from such a debate." He didn't understand my lack of interest in it and thought I should share input and how my faith was affected by it. I laughed and said, it had no impact of my faith in any way. He still didn't understand why I could not be interested in the debate. I personally thought it was ridiculous.

I have a high regard for science and its contributions to our advancement. I also have a high regard for religion, not just Christianity but all major religions, and their contributions to our advancement. I keep them separate because they are separate, like water and oil. In my opinion, any person who thinks science holds all the answers is just as ignorant as the person of faith he thinks likewise. My former college physics teacher was formerly a strict atheist, he now is an ordained minister who preaches God inspired sermons and shares his mature faith with all who will give an ear. I've watched his transition for over 30 years now, it's quite the story and has influenced me greatly. It doesn't mean he has disavowed science, he continues his love of science, but he also realizes there is more to life than explaining physical laws, theories, and limitations.
 
I wasn't interested in it either. I've been in these debates before. It seems like one side or the other always tries to use their side to disprove the other. That's completely backwards! If anything, use one to try and PROVE or at least understand the other.

I'm always amazed at atheists who try and say that Christians are anti-science. I'm a Christian, and those of you who know me well know that I live and breath science. Lots of us do; my pastor is an electrical engineer. The guy who sits next to me in the choir is the proverbial rocket scientist. No kidding, he was an engineer for NASA on the Apollo mission with Werner Von Braun.

We get answers and understanding from both. They are both important to me.
 
Guard Dad said:
I wasn't interested in it either. I've been in these debates before. It seems like one side or the other always tries to use their side to disprove the other. That's completely backwards! If anything, use one to try and PROVE or at least understand the other.

I'm always amazed at atheists who try and say that Christians are anti-science. I'm a Christian, and those of you who know me well know that I live and breath science. Lots of us do; my pastor is an electrical engineer. The guy who sits next to me in the choir is the proverbial rocket scientist. No kidding, he was an engineer for NASA on the Apollo mission with Werner Von Braun.

We get answers and understanding from both. They are both important to me.

I am quoting GD but agree with most of you. I have never understood some on both sides that feel both can't co-exist. Fact and faith work with many people that I know that have more degrees than I have shoes. They are different and both have a place. Either side that totally discounts the other loses me. They are not the same and yet I believe there is room for both in my life.

To quote JMan,"...any person who thinks science holds all the answers is just as ignorant as the person of faith he thinks likewise". Some things are unexplainable without faith and some things have an answer based in science and facts. You have to be willing to open your mind to that, though we know that some will never budge from either side. :dunno

I think many of you make some excellent points.

This is actually a very interesting topic for here when we have so many of faith, yet so many that are in or interested in science.
 
J-man said:
Winchester said:
If the "good book" had all the answers, why is the Vatican working with and supporting scientific research (to the tune of several $$Million$$) to look into these matters, as well as other stuff like DNA research, presence of extraterrestrial aliens, and verification of "Old Testament" bible stories?

Because inquiring minds want to know. I'm a Bible thumping baptist but I want scientific advancements to help mankind. I'm also a believer in the possibility of alien life and see no contradiction with that and Creationism.

Agreed. I'm certainly not afraid of what science may or may not discover. God gave us science as He did all things. However, the mind of man is fallible unlike the mind of God and man's conclusions are not always accurate. The proof being what man has concluded in the past, such as the earth being flat or the notion that the sun and planets revolved around the earth instead of the opposite.

Does anyone actually believe that man has achieved an infallible ability to explain everything. If God allows this earth to exist for another 500 years, those scientists will look back and proclaim how ignorant we were.

If God were to show himself during half time at the next Super Bowl to prove his existence, everyone would believe. Why then would there need to be acceptance by faith? Instead of asking God for salvation out of a convicted and contrite spirit, acceptance would be based on fear alone. He requires acceptance and praise from a willing heart, not a fearful servant.

Blessed are those who have seen, but how much more blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe? ;D
 
Okay, a few quick things on a busy morning. Ken Ham accurately pointed out that creationists CAN and are scientists - he gave the names of several scientists who work in various scientific fields. He also showed how the time dating processes are flawed. One example he showed and discussed was where a piece of wood that was encased in a rock was tested. The wood was dated as significantly younger than the rock in which it was encased (by several hundred thousand or a few million years). As demonstrated, it would have been impossible for the wood to have been younger than the rock, especially by such a significant number of years. He based a lot of his explanation on the supposition that science deals in absolutes. Yet, when you rely on the dating processes out there for the earth, fossils, etc., a lot of things are assumed because we have no clear and absolute evidence that something actually existed at a specific time (like we know the absolute date that Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, so we know that any evidence of his presence on the moon would have been left in 1969). We don't have that exact evidence for things from millions of years ago, so scientists had to come up with a theory upon which to draw their data - that doesn't mean the theory is correct.

Waski, I'm surprised that you don't believe creationists can be scientists - science encompasses so much more than just when and how our world began.

Okay, back to work!
 
LisaC said:
Okay, a few quick things on a busy morning. Ken Ham accurately pointed out that creationists CAN and are scientists - he gave the names of several scientists who work in various scientific fields. He also showed how the time dating processes are flawed. One example he showed and discussed was where a piece of wood that was encased in a rock was tested. The wood was dated as significantly younger than the rock in which it was encased (by several hundred thousand or a few million years). As demonstrated, it would have been impossible for the wood to have been younger than the rock, especially by such a significant number of years. He based a lot of his explanation on the supposition that science deals in absolutes. Yet, when you rely on the dating processes out there for the earth, fossils, etc., a lot of things are assumed because we have no clear and absolute evidence that something actually existed at a specific time (like we know the absolute date that Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, so we know that any evidence of his presence on the moon would have been left in 1969). We don't have that exact evidence for things from millions of years ago, so scientists had to come up with a theory upon which to draw their data - that doesn't mean the theory is correct.

Waski, I'm surprised that you don't believe creationists can be scientists - science encompasses so much more than just when and how our world began.

Okay, back to work!
I'm sorry Lisa, Ham is wrong, but he is no idiot. He cleverly introduced this well known, well worn and busted "conundrum" in his rebuttal to Nye, which in the format of this discussion did not afford Nye a "recross" if you will. This is why it went unchallenged by Nye in the discussion.

Long story short, the excessive Ka "age" of the basalt was due to excessive Argon in the sample from cooling lava flows, like an air bubble trapped in ice. In other words, Ka dating is known to be relatively useless in some areas, including the basalt areas of Australia and New Zeland, because it actually measures the decay of Argon. Dating by other methods, yielded dates that would be well within the realm of probability. The error was human, not with the science. Somebody used the wrong tool.

Think of it as using a proper way to measure temperature. Obviously, a glass thermometer is quite accurate in measuring relatively "normal" temperatures such as the air outside in the US. We rely upon them every day. But it would be absolutely foolhardy to use one for measuring the temperature of something like lava. Does that make them useless in general? Absolutely not. There is a reason why Scientists use different tools for different situations.
 
Scientist are often "wrong," otherwise they'd always agree. Case in point, global warming, at least the immediate dire urgency they like to use to justify their continued work (i.e. continued funding). Scientist are at their basic level human, we all know humans are imperfect (not just spiritually but as a person) and easily influenced under the right circumstances. No human living today was around when the earth was formed, when it actually occurred is at best an "educated guess" based on a group of "accepted" laws, theories, and principles. Believe in scientific data is no different than belief in the Bible, both require faith that what is believed to be true is actually correct. There is a long track record of incorrect scientific data but of course it's called "revised data" or "new discoveries" when the errors are discovered and corrected. Faith in science requires faith in man, I prefer to hold my faith in a higher power. T
 
J-man said:
Scientist are often "wrong," otherwise they'd always agree. Case in point, global warming, at least the immediate dire urgency they like to use to justify their continued work (i.e. continued funding). Scientist are at their basic level human, we all know humans are imperfect (not just spiritually but as a person) and easily influenced under the right circumstances. No human living today was around when the earth was formed, when it actually occurred is at best an "educated guess" based on a group of "accepted" laws, theories, and principles. Believe in scientific data is no different than belief in the Bible, both require faith that what is believed to be true is actually correct. There is a long track record of incorrect scientific data but of course it's called "revised data" or "new discoveries" when the errors are discovered and corrected. Faith in science requires faith in man, I prefer to hold my faith in a higher power. T
Science can be disproved. THAT is what makes it science. Scientists sometimes spend their entire lives on a project only to find out it's a dead end, but they furthered the cause by pointing out what is false as well as what is true. HOWEVER. Science requires one thing that Faith doesn't, and that is evidence. I have absolutely no "faith" in science, but I absolutely believe the physical evidence put before me. Science doesn't know everything, but that is no reason to fill in the blanks with magic.
 
For evidence to be proven it requires an interpretation of data. It is within this interpretation that a thumbs up or thumbs down is introduced. All information involving humans is at some level subjective. When enough people support a certain interpretation then it is accepted as being so (thumbs up), normally the stronger or more organized group having the final say. It doesn't take much science to prove fire can burn, just put your hand over a flame and that's pretty solid evidence. It's much more difficult when the same principle is applied to more sophisticated inquires.
 
Back
Top