I\'m surprised nobody has mentioned this

lotstodo

aka "The Jackal"
My FB is ablaze with "stories" about the IRS doing atheist bidding and specious comparisons to illegally targeting conservative organizations. I'm sure many of you have heard the same thing.

Here is the truth:

In 2009 an atheist organization asked the IRS to investigate "Pulpit Freedom Sunday". This was a day when it's organizers, Alliance Defending Freedom, a fundamentalist Christian legal organization, set aside for cooperative church groups to openly defy the 60 year old rule baring 503(c) tax exempt groups from specifically advocating for or against an individual political candidate. The IRS agreed to investigate. In 2012, the same group, The Freedom From Religion Foundation, filed suit in Federal Court stating that the IRS not only ignored the agreement, but knowingly and purposely refused to enforce the law in regards to the open protest which had become an annual event held on a Sunday in August. With no legal leg to stand on, the IRS again agreed and settled out of court.

Now lets be very plain here, the IRS is not going to go into your Church, hide in the back pew, and monitor your service, which is the current hysteria. That's hogwash. That is unless it's August 14 and yours is a Church that has signed up to participate in the "protest". The IRS doesn't give a hoot if your pastor preaches against abortion, gay marriage, drinking on Sunday, dancing, cussing, gambling, sex outside of marriage, or what have you. The IRS doesn't care if your Pastor asks you to carefully consider the list of candidates running for office and to choose the one that best follows whatever principals the church espouses. The Pastor may speak for or against pending legislation. If you invite him over for supper, you can discuss individual candidates because he is acting as an individual citizen and is not acting as a representative of the tax exempt organization. What the IRS does care about is your Pastor giving a campaign speech on Sunday and asking you to vote for John Doe. What the IRS does care about is your Preacher standing at the pulpit and running down Fred Smith by name for being pro abortion. That's it. There is a huge difference between the popular meme and this reality. The IRS is simply enforcing the law in the face of well known and very specific violations of the tax exempt agreement between a small but growing number of Churches and the IRS.

In response, the Alliance Defending Freedom has prepared guidelines for what is legally acceptable and not acceptable political speech from the Church. This in itself is a great deal of what the Freedom From Religion Foundation was asking for. If participating Churches follow these simple guidelines, then there should be absolutely no punitive action on the part of the IRS, and one would assume that should member Churches mind their P's and Q's, the IRS can use the fact of this compliance to lighten up next year.

I know this is an intelligent group and I hope that you see the difference between campaigning for an individual candidate from the pulpit and preaching the Gospel. By the way, the Freedom From Religion Foundation has to play by the same rules, and I am sure you also understand that by being so vocal they have indeed opened themselves up to the highest level of scrutiny.
 
lotstodo said:
I know this is an intelligent group and I hope that you see the difference between campaigning for an individual candidate from the pulpit and preaching the Gospel.

There is INDEED a huge difference between campaigning for a candidate and preaching the gospel. I personally am not a fan of churches being involved in the political process, but to each his own.

I'm not a particular fan of FFRF, but I have no quibble with any of this. In fact, I'd prefer that churches pay taxes like any other entity and say what they wish.

But since they brought up the campaigning from the pulpit - is the group gonna monitor black churches as well as other churches? (Yeah, I went there.)
 
Thank-you Lotstodo for this reasonable post. So many people are buried in conspiracy theories that they don't really live in the real world. They get so paranoid about anything done under the Obama administration, and sound exactly like those on the other side under the Bush administration.
 
Waski_the_Squirrel said:
Thank-you Lotstodo for this reasonable post. So many people are buried in conspiracy theories that they don't really live in the real world. They get so paranoid about anything done under the Obama administration, and sound exactly like those on the other side under the Bush administration.

:thumbsup
 
I wonder if anyone in that organization or a similar organization has ever listened to the Right Reverend Wright from the church P-Bo attended in Chicago?

I have never attended a church that out and out spoke for or against a specific candidate.
 
Sounds very reasonable to me as long as each "church" is monitored equally. I don't care for anyone pushing for or against a candidate from the pulpit. Preach the sermon, make it relative to our lives, then get off my lawn and let me decide how I will apply it. I don't need a political commercial from a pastor.

Good post.
 
mei lan said:
lotstodo said:
I know this is an intelligent group and I hope that you see the difference between campaigning for an individual candidate from the pulpit and preaching the Gospel.

There is INDEED a huge difference between campaigning for a candidate and preaching the gospel. I personally am not a fan of churches being involved in the political process, but to each his own.

I'm not a particular fan of FFRF, but I have no quibble with any of this. In fact, I'd prefer that churches pay taxes like any other entity and say what they wish.

But since they brought up the campaigning from the pulpit - is the group gonna monitor black churches as well as other churches? (Yeah, I went there.)

:smiley-signs009:
 
stradial said:
mei lan said:
lotstodo said:
I know this is an intelligent group and I hope that you see the difference between campaigning for an individual candidate from the pulpit and preaching the Gospel.

There is INDEED a huge difference between campaigning for a candidate and preaching the gospel. I personally am not a fan of churches being involved in the political process, but to each his own.

I'm not a particular fan of FFRF, but I have no quibble with any of this. In fact, I'd prefer that churches pay taxes like any other entity and say what they wish.

But since they brought up the campaigning from the pulpit - is the group gonna monitor black churches as well as other churches? (Yeah, I went there.)

:smiley-signs009:

The obligatory :Stick for the Dito. :BH

I did go to a large church in Midtown years ago when President Bush 41 was running for re-election and he and Mrs. Barbara came to our church for Sunday morning worship (but no politickin'). We all had to have background checks ("we" being singers in choir, orchestra musicians, etc.), and we were all agog over the men talking into their sleeve cuffs and the roving guard dogs in the hallways and the snipers on top of the yute building. I'm sure we looked completely retarded as we tried not to look at the Bushes. We laughed at ourselves as kuntry come to town. :D
 
lotstodo said:
The IRS is simply enforcing the law in the face of well known and very specific violations of the tax exempt agreement between a small but growing number of Churches and the IRS.



I've got no problem with the IRS enforcing the law.


It is their recent history of partisan selective enforcement that troubles me.


Can we trust the folks that destroyed those hard drives to be neutral ? ? ?


:dunno
 
mei lan said:
stradial said:
mei lan said:
lotstodo said:
I know this is an intelligent group and I hope that you see the difference between campaigning for an individual candidate from the pulpit and preaching the Gospel.

There is INDEED a huge difference between campaigning for a candidate and preaching the gospel. I personally am not a fan of churches being involved in the political process, but to each his own.

I'm not a particular fan of FFRF, but I have no quibble with any of this. In fact, I'd prefer that churches pay taxes like any other entity and say what they wish.

But since they brought up the campaigning from the pulpit - is the group gonna monitor black churches as well as other churches? (Yeah, I went there.)

:smiley-signs009:

The obligatory :Stick for the Dito. :BH

I did go to a large church in Midtown years ago when President Bush 41 was running for re-election and he and Mrs. Barbara came to our church for Sunday morning worship (but no politickin'). We all had to have background checks ("we" being singers in choir, orchestra musicians, etc.), and we were all agog over the men talking into their sleeve cuffs and the roving guard dogs in the hallways and the snipers on top of the yute building. I'm sure we looked completely retarded as we tried not to look at the Bushes. We laughed at ourselves as kuntry come to town. :D

Every once in a while I'll wear my sunglasses into the grocery store after church and talk into my sleeve cuff just for fun. If someone notices, they look all around like, "What?" :dunno :whistle
:laugh
 
honeybunny said:
lotstodo said:
The IRS is simply enforcing the law in the face of well known and very specific violations of the tax exempt agreement between a small but growing number of Churches and the IRS.



I've got no problem with the IRS enforcing the law.


It is their recent history of partisan selective enforcement that troubles me.


Can we trust the folks that destroyed those hard drives to be neutral ? ? ?


:dunno
It is my understanding that the list this year is exactly 99 churches participating. The IRS has not said which churches they will visit, but obviously without a recording they won't get anywhere in court. Evidence is just that easy to get if they are violating the Johnson Amendment. No "trust" required.
 
I cannot trust the IRS to do anything legally or legitimately ever again, regardless of who is in charge.
 
LTD is correct.

The reason I know...the political left runs a massive scare campaign at every major election to try and frighten churches into going nowhere near any political issues. They even send very official looking letters to churches, threatening that they could lose their tax exempt status. So I did some investigation several years ago for the church I was at.

So long as the church doesn't cross the line at endorsing candidates; they are not at risk of losing their tax exempt status. They can preach against abortion, gay marriage...any of those issues all day long. They just can't tell the congregation who to specifically vote for.
 
Guard Dad said:
LTD is correct.

The reason I know...the political left runs a massive scare campaign at every major election to try and frighten churches into going nowhere near any political issues. They even send very official looking letters to churches, threatening that they could lose their tax exempt status. So I did some investigation several years ago for the church I was at.

So long as the church doesn't cross the line at endorsing candidates; they are not at risk of losing their tax exempt status. They can preach against abortion, gay marriage...any of those issues all day long. They just can't tell the congregation who to specifically vote for.

They should pay a property tax.
:)
 
stradial said:
Guard Dad said:
LTD is correct.

The reason I know...the political left runs a massive scare campaign at every major election to try and frighten churches into going nowhere near any political issues. They even send very official looking letters to churches, threatening that they could lose their tax exempt status. So I did some investigation several years ago for the church I was at.

So long as the church doesn't cross the line at endorsing candidates; they are not at risk of losing their tax exempt status. They can preach against abortion, gay marriage...any of those issues all day long. They just can't tell the congregation who to specifically vote for.

They should pay a property tax.
:)

I think you'll find that most local governments are happy to have churches in the community, tax paying or not.
 
Guard Dad said:
stradial said:
Guard Dad said:
LTD is correct.

The reason I know...the political left runs a massive scare campaign at every major election to try and frighten churches into going nowhere near any political issues. They even send very official looking letters to churches, threatening that they could lose their tax exempt status. So I did some investigation several years ago for the church I was at.

So long as the church doesn't cross the line at endorsing candidates; they are not at risk of losing their tax exempt status. They can preach against abortion, gay marriage...any of those issues all day long. They just can't tell the congregation who to specifically vote for.

They should pay a property tax.
:)

I think you'll find that most local governments are happy to have churches in the community, tax paying or not.

It's deja vu all over again. :)
 
stradial said:
Guard Dad said:
stradial said:
Guard Dad said:
LTD is correct.

The reason I know...the political left runs a massive scare campaign at every major election to try and frighten churches into going nowhere near any political issues. They even send very official looking letters to churches, threatening that they could lose their tax exempt status. So I did some investigation several years ago for the church I was at.

So long as the church doesn't cross the line at endorsing candidates; they are not at risk of losing their tax exempt status. They can preach against abortion, gay marriage...any of those issues all day long. They just can't tell the congregation who to specifically vote for.

They should pay a property tax.
:)

I think you'll find that most local governments are happy to have churches in the community, tax paying or not.

It's deja vu all over again. :)

:)) Thread flashbacks?
 
stradial said:
They should pay a property tax.
:)

That has been through the Supreme Court already.

I have a hard time with it when I read about these megachurches and wealthy pastors, especially those prosperity gospel types. There was a whole chapter about these churches in the book I'm reading right now: Shiny Objects: Why We Spend Money We Don't Have in Search of Happiness We Can't Buy. That whole thing is repulsive and I think goes beyond what the First Amendment was meant to protect. But, I recognize that we need to take the bad with the good. Nonprofits and charities are protected as well, and not all of them are deserving of this protection. Just to muddy the issue I will also add unions and credit unions to the list of entities protected from a lot of taxes. (Note that political activity by unions is taxed.)
 
Every church that I have attended has erred on the side of caution and stays completely away political stuff. My church won't even encourage folks to go out and vote.

I haven't been barraged with the stuff on Facebook either, LTD. :dunno
 
Madea said:
Every church that I have attended has erred on the side of caution and stays completely away political stuff. My church won't even encourage folks to go out and vote.

I haven't been barraged with the stuff on Facebook either, LTD. :dunno
That's because they have been scared into submission

Sent over a BiFrost using Tapatalk.
 
Back
Top