Teacher Pay

[dapandlap]

After a recent conversation with a teacher from a neighboring county, it seems to be a serious problem that is long past due for a solution.
As in most metro counties teachers have suffered lay-offs, furloughs, no COLA raise in nearly three years, and now the rumor is a possible re-working of the pension plans for above mentioned neighboring county.
That being said, what will be the incentive for teachers to remain in this field, when seemingly the longer they stay in this profession the less they make.
It has been argued that it is in the best interest of everyone in the community for the children of the community to receive a good education.
Being at a point where the local governments are strapped for cash flow, what options do we as a community have in this the situation?
Think of this as a project that you have been assigned, and that you will need to put forth a reasonable amount of thought before posting your reply.
Remember we all have skin in the game as property owner/ taxpayers.
If you were one of the elected officials who have to try to fix the problem, what would you do?
OK game on

 

[Madea]

I truly feel for our teachers, but as a private sector employee, I wonder what makes them exempt from what we are all feeling?

I am approaching 3 years without a raise. I am, by choice, employed at a job without benefits. No 401k, no insurance, etc. My husband is paid on commission (again, a choice he made a long time ago). However, he recently had a 15 week run where he brought home ZERO. Let that sink in.

I do still believe we should do all we can to protect our teachers, police officers and fire personnel. Each of those are for the common good. Paulding's particular problem is that the school district takes an overwhelming portion of the budget.

 

[lotstodo]

While it is true that teachers haven't gotten a raise in 3 years, state employees haven't gotten one in five. Also teachers were getting 5% raises when other employees were getting 2%-3% for several years before that. The teacher's retirement system is tied into the state employees retirement system and they are nearly identical.

I know that teachers are hurting, but so is everyone else. You can't cut government spending without cutting or stalling employee numbers or benefits, and teacher numbers are mandated. The free market says that teachers will leave the profession when the negatives outweigh the positives, and If any teacher got into the profession for the high pay, they are probably not that bright to start with.

The price (salary, benefits, intangibles) of labor is set by supply and demand just like the price of goods is.

What I would do is let the marketplace work. If I have problems getting or retaining qualified teachers, then I would have to find funds or perks that would attract them. But right now systems are laying off teachers, so that scenario is unlikely until a real recovery begins. At the present time I would just explain that everyone is hurting right now and they have a job with insurance and retirement benefits. If they don't like it, they are free to leave and seek employment elsewhere in teaching or in another field.

 

[dapandlap]

I hear ya Madea, business for me has been VERY slow this summer, somewhat like your husband if I don't work I don't get paid.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that we all have skin in this game as property owner/ taxpayers, and the school system in that sense belongs to us.
So what do we do, what options do we have?

 

[Madea]

I hear ya Madea, business for me has been VERY slow this summer, somewhat like your husband if I don't work I don't get paid.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that we all have skin in this game as property owner/ taxpayers, and the school system in that sense belongs to us.
So what do we do, what options do we have?

Yes, we all have a dog in the fight. In particular, I have two children. One in elementary and one in middle. So it's VERY important to me. As homeowners, a good educational system is important to home values. As parents, it's important for our children. As neighbors, it's important to have a good, upcoming generation.

The upside (or downside, however you see it) is that employment in the private sector is not currently a better option. I know teachers are frustrated. I understand that. We have to give them the best working conditions possible. That may not always mean more $$$.

 

[Waski_the_Squirrel]

I am a teacher, and I work in one of the lowest paid states in the nation (at least for teachers). The US Census puts us at #49. Naturally, I'd like more money, but there are a few real world considerations.

One is how much other workers in the area are paid. It's unrealistic to pay teachers far in excess of other workers. Although the data is old, Mike Antonucci made this point well by comparing teachers with other workers, along with some other interesting discussion.

Another major point is that teachers are paid by tax dollars. I get annoyed with teachers at my school who simultaneously complain about the high property taxes and their low salaries. They just don't seem to grasp where the money comes from.

At most schools, money can be saved by trimming staff, cutting administration, delaying maintenance, or by cutting (or not raising) salary and benefits. In many schools, a large number of staff will stay. If a school can fill positions, it has far less incentive to raise salary than one which has difficulty filling positions. I know of one small school in the northern part of North Dakota that has a starting salary thousands greater than the average teacher salary in the state. They were losing teachers to the oil fields and were too small to attract new teachers.

Small schools near the large cities in the state often have very low salaries because they depend on transient teachers who will teach at their school while waiting to get in to the city school.

My own school has quite a low salary compared to others that are similar in size and especially compared to others in the oil field. To attract teachers, my school plays up its location, the great downtown, the building, and small class sizes. They even lie a little bit. (I was told one room would be my classroom. After they hired me, it turned out to be a different room which is not suitable at all for science.)

Money might get a new teacher's attention, but the other factors I listed will get their attention as well. To keep a teacher, which is more important than attracting new teachers, a school needs to offer consistent discipline, stability and honesty, decent facilities, and an opportunity for staff to work together. A school also needs to ake sure it doesn't abuse its staff by overworking them or expecting something for nothing. I left one school because I was expected to put in far too much time outside my day, and I wasn't paid for it.

 

[Guard Dad]

I tend to agree that government workers in general should be subject to the same economic pressures the rest of us are. Not singling out teachers.

As for teacher's pay...I have always felt that teachers should be paid more, but the standards should be raised too. And there should be more of a performance based pay system for teachers. I have encountered some outstanding teachers, and some that were very poor. Seems to me that if we raised the standards and used a performance based pay system like most of us in the real world is on, the overall quality of teachers would go up and the additional cost of their higher salaries would be a good investment.

 

[ShoeDiva]

I tend to agree that government workers in general should be subject to the same economic pressures the rest of us are. Not singling out teachers.

As for teacher's pay...I have always felt that teachers should be paid more, but the standards should be raised too. And there should be more of a performance based pay system for teachers. I have encountered some outstanding teachers, and some that were very poor. Seems to me that if we raised the standards and used a performance based pay system like most of us in the real world is on, the overall quality of teachers would go up and the additional cost of their higher salaries would be a good investment.

That is not realistic. What about the teacher that teachers in a special ed classroom? The teacher that has a class of kids that just will not do their work? It is unfair in most situations to base their salary on what someone else will do. (She can't fire the kids and get new ones. LOL) The teacher can be phenomenal at what she does, the best math, science, social studies, etc., teacher you have ever come across, but if she gets a class or even a few children that will not work, does not care, she can only do so much. Her pay should not be based on little Johnny that will not do anything and Johnny's mom that thinks Johnny is an angel and the teacher is just asking too much.
There are many teachers out there that should not be teaching. I understand the premise of pay for results, but the problem in this field is that they can bend over backwards, go the extra mile, and still not show results for the effort.

 

[Guard Dad]

I tend to agree that government workers in general should be subject to the same economic pressures the rest of us are. Not singling out teachers.

As for teacher's pay...I have always felt that teachers should be paid more, but the standards should be raised too. And there should be more of a performance based pay system for teachers. I have encountered some outstanding teachers, and some that were very poor. Seems to me that if we raised the standards and used a performance based pay system like most of us in the real world is on, the overall quality of teachers would go up and the additional cost of their higher salaries would be a good investment.

That is not realistic. What about the teacher that teachers in a special ed classroom? The teacher that has a class of kids that just will not do their work? It is unfair in most situations to base their salary on what someone else will do. (She can't fire the kids and get new ones. LOL) The teacher can be phenomenal at what she does, the best math, science, social studies, etc., teacher you have ever come across, but if she gets a class or even a few children that will not work, does not care, she can only do so much. Her pay should not be based on little Johnny that will not do anything and Johnny's mom that thinks Johnny is an angel and the teacher is just asking too much.
There are many teachers out there that should not be teaching. I understand the premise of pay for results, but the problem in this field is that they can bend over backwards, go the extra mile, and still not show results for the effort.

I do see your point. But it still seems that there would be some fair method of rating or grading the teacher on performance.

 

[ShoeDiva]

I tend to agree that government workers in general should be subject to the same economic pressures the rest of us are. Not singling out teachers.

As for teacher's pay...I have always felt that teachers should be paid more, but the standards should be raised too. And there should be more of a performance based pay system for teachers. I have encountered some outstanding teachers, and some that were very poor. Seems to me that if we raised the standards and used a performance based pay system like most of us in the real world is on, the overall quality of teachers would go up and the additional cost of their higher salaries would be a good investment.

That is not realistic. What about the teacher that teachers in a special ed classroom? The teacher that has a class of kids that just will not do their work? It is unfair in most situations to base their salary on what someone else will do. (She can't fire the kids and get new ones. LOL) The teacher can be phenomenal at what she does, the best math, science, social studies, etc., teacher you have ever come across, but if she gets a class or even a few children that will not work, does not care, she can only do so much. Her pay should not be based on little Johnny that will not do anything and Johnny's mom that thinks Johnny is an angel and the teacher is just asking too much.
There are many teachers out there that should not be teaching. I understand the premise of pay for results, but the problem in this field is that they can bend over backwards, go the extra mile, and still not show results for the effort.

I do see your point. But it still seems that there would be some fair method of rating or grading the teacher on performance.

I agree. I just have not been able, personally, to think of one that would be. Believe me, my child had such a bad teacher last year (I will not even go into what she was doing) she should not have been teaching. (She is not anymore at his HS, pft, she should have been fired, but that was apparently not an option, but they did move her.) So I understand that pay should be looked at, I just do not know how.

 

[lotstodo]

I once worked in a "design pool" for a very large company. Design is very subjective. This particular company found that management was clueless as to whether or not a particular design or designer was good, because they only knew what they liked. The solution was a painful experience we called s*)t day. It occurred once a quarter, and each designer made their case for their work not to management, but to other designers. You got comments, criticisms, kudos, and well, s*)t. At the end of the day, it was a bit like the Academy Awards. Every designer knows the relative difficulty of certain tasks and task masters, and there can be no standardized test, but you are judged by a jury of your peers, and those who are tops at their particular quarterly tasks, won a free weekend trip. Those who were in the bottom were unknown to us, but they got a private talk from their boss. This judging was combined with the normal personnel judgements of your supervisors, and this was the basis for your pay and promotion, or your dismissal.

I often wondered why a similar system couldn't be used for teachers, because there is so much subjectivity in what makes a truly good one, far beyond anything standardized testing can pinpoint.

 

[mei lan]

I have a friend who just retired at age 55 from teaching in Fulton Co. She will draw upwards of $70K per year and keep her insurance, and she got a massive bonus for untaken leave when she left. I think teachers have a LOT better financial life than a LOT of folks in the private sector. I am personally entering my 10th year of cut pay (construction industry, which woes began with 9/11). The first 8 1/2 were about 50% cut in pay, and now I'm up to about 20% cut in pay from where I was 10 years ago. I don't make anywhere near $70K, I can assure you. But of course, I'm not dealing with the precious children, either.

 

[unionmom]

I once worked in a "design pool" for a very large company. Design is very subjective. This particular company found that management was clueless as to whether or not a particular design or designer was good, because they only knew what they liked. The solution was a painful experience we called s*)t day. It occurred once a quarter, and each designer made their case for their work not to management, but to other designers. You got comments, criticisms, kudos, and well, s*)t. At the end of the day, it was a bit like the Academy Awards. Every designer knows the relative difficulty of certain tasks and task masters, and there can be no standardized test, but you are judged by a jury of your peers, and those who are tops at their particular quarterly tasks, won a free weekend trip. Those who were in the bottom were unknown to us, but they got a private talk from their boss. This judging was combined with the normal personnel judgements of your supervisors, and this was the basis for your pay and promotion, or your dismissal.

I often wondered why a similar system couldn't be used for teachers, because there is so much subjectivity in what makes a truly good one, far beyond anything standardized testing can pinpoint.

Yep ... some form of peer review would absolutely have to be involved in the process. Just take a look to Atlanta too see what happens when only tests are looked at.

And tenure has got to go. Absolutely, positively no flipping way should any public employee be able to gain that type of protection. Period.

 

[lotstodo]

I once worked in a "design pool" for a very large company. Design is very subjective. This particular company found that management was clueless as to whether or not a particular design or designer was good, because they only knew what they liked. The solution was a painful experience we called s*)t day. It occurred once a quarter, and each designer made their case for their work not to management, but to other designers. You got comments, criticisms, kudos, and well, s*)t. At the end of the day, it was a bit like the Academy Awards. Every designer knows the relative difficulty of certain tasks and task masters, and there can be no standardized test, but you are judged by a jury of your peers, and those who are tops at their particular quarterly tasks, won a free weekend trip. Those who were in the bottom were unknown to us, but they got a private talk from their boss. This judging was combined with the normal personnel judgements of your supervisors, and this was the basis for your pay and promotion, or your dismissal.

I often wondered why a similar system couldn't be used for teachers, because there is so much subjectivity in what makes a truly good one, far beyond anything standardized testing can pinpoint.

Yep ... some form of peer review would absolutely have to be involved in the process. Just take a look to Atlanta too see what happens when only tests are looked at.

And tenure has got to go. Absolutely, positively no flipping way should any public employee be able to gain that type of protection. Period.

If you have ever gone to college you know what a complete joke tenure is. It's nothing but premature retirement.